From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun  1 18:35:48 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 13:12:05 1996
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Date: 06 Jun 96 13:08:45 EDT
From: "Arthur L. Zigas" <74211.226@compuserve.com>
To: <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Very Quiet!
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Wot's happ'n?
No bounce mail for 2 days?
Art 


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 21:34:19 1996
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Hi realy quiet all are sleeping
Sylvio
>Wot's happ'n?
>No bounce mail for 2 days?
>Art 
>
>
>


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 22:12:45 1996
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 02:10:06 UT
From: "Pierre-Andr\i Morin" <PAMorin@msn.com>
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Parlez vous francais avec un prenom comme SYlvio
	Pierre-Andre

----------
De : 	bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu de la part de sylvio laliberte
Date d'envoi :	6 juin, 1996 21:33
A :	melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Objet :	Re: Very Quiet!

Hi realy quiet all are sleeping
Sylvio
>Wot's happ'n?
>No bounce mail for 2 days?
>Art 
>
>
>



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun  6 23:40:12 1996
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:42:48 +0300
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>Parlez vous francais avec un prenom comme SYlvio
>        Pierre-Andre
>
>----------
>De :    bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu de la part de sylvio laliberte
>Date d'envoi :  6 juin, 1996 21:33
>A :     melatonin@ai.mit.edu
>Objet : Re: Very Quiet!
>
>Hi realy quiet all are sleeping
>Sylvio
>>Wot's happ'n?
>>No bounce mail for 2 days?
>>Art
>>
>>
>>

no mail here either.
Mike


 



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 08:45:15 1996
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Arthur L. Zigas wrote:
> 
> Wot's happ'n?
> No bounce mail for 2 days?
> Art

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 09:37:48 1996
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Date: 07 Jun 96 09:34:28 EDT
From: "Jeffrey Hyman (Egham)" <100102.2264@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Quiet?
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Perhaps everyone's gone to sleep????????

I didnt really get on with Melatonin, but I've slipped some tabs to our
receptionist who now sleeps wonderfully.

The sleep's the first thing which people get to know about because the youthing
takes longer.

Read somewhere that the mice/rat experiments were not good because the little
beasties sleep during the day, but I thought the point of the experiment was to
show that they re-youthed.

Anyway does anyone know how we're doing in the UK.  Have they banned it?  It
seems an obvious candidate for multi level here.

Is there a good web page etc.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 10:27:35 1996
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:26:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sylvio Laliberte <Sylvio_Laliberte@uqac.uquebec.ca>
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Bien oui je parle francais mais un mauvais anglais et comme le reseau est
anglais bien on pense que seulement les anglais le lisent.
Sylvio


On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Pierre-Andri Morin wrote:

> Parlez vous francais avec un prenom comme SYlvio
> 	Pierre-Andre
> 
> ----------
> De : 	bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu de la part de sylvio laliberte
> Date d'envoi :	6 juin, 1996 21:33
> A :	melatonin@ai.mit.edu
> Objet :	Re: Very Quiet!
> 
> Hi realy quiet all are sleeping
> Sylvio
> >Wot's happ'n?
> >No bounce mail for 2 days?
> >Art 
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 11:30:43 1996
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Remove

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 11:35:17 1996
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From: Amcis@aol.com
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remove

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 12:52:34 1996
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 07 Jun 1996 12:51:49 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:51:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: pehs_st_jb@noeca.ohio.gov
Subject: delete
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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Please delete my name from the mialing list.


thabnks

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 12:59:39 1996
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: pehs_st_jb@noeca.ohio.gov
Subject: remove
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Please remove my name from the list.

Thanks.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 18:58:58 1996
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Subject: Very Quiet!
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>From: "Arthur L. Zigas" <74211.226@compuserve.com>
>To: <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
>Sender: bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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>Subject: Very Quiet!
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"info" in body.
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to melatonin.
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>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 96 17:08:45 +0000
>
>Wot's happ'n?
>No bounce mail for 2 days?
>Art 
>This was received by us.  How did it get redirected to our email.  Please
take necessary steps to prevent this in the future.
>


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 19:02:54 1996
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Please delete my name from the mialing list.


thabnks


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Please remove my name from the list.

Thanks.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 19:05:47 1996
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From: mwgall@epix.net (by way of Sharon Towry <mwgall@epix.net>)
Subject: RE: Very Quiet!
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>Parlez vous francais avec un prenom comme SYlvio
>        Pierre-Andre
>
>----------
>De :    bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu de la part de sylvio laliberte
>Date d'envoi :  6 juin, 1996 21:33
>A :     melatonin@ai.mit.edu
>Objet : Re: Very Quiet!
>
>Hi realy quiet all are sleeping
>Sylvio
>>Wot's happ'n?
>>No bounce mail for 2 days?
>>Art
>>
>>
>>

no mail here either.
Mike


 




From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 21:13:00 1996
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Please remove my name from the melatonin mail list.


iscusa

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun  7 23:05:24 1996
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please remove my name from the list.

Thank you.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun  8 00:09:54 1996
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please remove my name from this list.

Thank you.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun  8 10:02:50 1996
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please remove my name from the list.

thank you

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun  8 16:43:04 1996
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please remove my name from the list.

thank you


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun  9 09:37:43 1996
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Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:37:16 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: melatonin users personal experience
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I've used melatonin for over a year and use approx. 0.75 mg
or 1/4 of a 3 mg tablet.

I am a vegan vegetarian. Because of my vegan preference and
the fact that most melatonin packaging does not describe the
source of origin, namely whether the melatonin is synthetic
or natural, I have switched to brands like Schiff Brand
pharmaceutical grade which I assume is synthetic.

The following article and growing evidence of a 'mad cow
disease cover-up' in the US reinforces my concerns about
melatonin use.

Of course, as a vegan, mad cow or not, I refuse to consume
any animal products...


MELATONIN: MIRACLE OR MENACE? 


Deseret News Archives ... December 12, 1995 ... Reuter News Service 

A series of books extolling the virtues of the naturally produced hormone
have caused a stampede to health stores, with U.S. consumers sweeping
melatonin tablets from the shelves. Such passionate American espousal has
alarmed British regulators, who have ordered it to be made available only on
prescription.



Melatonin is a hormone produced naturally in the pineal gland, a pea-size
organ in the center of the brain. It works with the neuro-trans-mitter
serotonin to regulate sleep. Secreted naturally as darkness falls, it
regulates fertility in animals and governs the sleep cycle. Children produce
it in large quantities, but production falls with age, dropping steeply in
middle age.

It is known to help regulate sleep in people with sleep disorders and is
prescribed in Britain to help counteract jet lag. ``It does have some free
radical scavenging activity,'' said Dr. Josephine Arendt, an endocrinologist
at the University of Surrey in southern England. ``But I have yet to see any
evidence of this in humans.' Arendt says there is good evidence that taking
synthesized melatonin tablets helps prevent jet lag and regulates sleep
patterns in some people. Arendt, who said she tested the hormone on herself
before using it on humans, said other claims were not borne out. ``I have
personally taken it since 1981, and I have, in the process, become old,
gray, wrinkled and fat,'' she said.



She added: ``You should not even consider taking melatonin from any animal
source.''

Most of the companies that make melatonin tablets keep its formula secret.
But some scientists working with the hormone describe getting it from rats
that have been whisked up in a blender, while other sources may include cattle.

Children given human growth hormone from corpses have developed
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD), a fatal nerve disorder that turns the brain
spongy. There are fears that people can get CJD from exposure to infected
brain tissue from cattle with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE or mad
cow disease).


What about melatonin? It has been sold in Europe and the US for years and is
very popular in health food circles and as a food supplement for
vegetarians. Many brands of so called "Natural Melatonin" (non-synthetic)
are prepared from bovine pineal glands. 



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun  9 09:59:49 1996
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Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:59:21 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: if exposed to BSE via melatonin, it is not too late
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I've taken 0.75 mgs melatonin for over a year. I am 58 years old
and a vegan vegetarian in excellent health. I look and feel quite
youthful. All colleagues who don't know my age assume that
I may be at most 40. While I do not attribute my youthfulness to
melatonin, I wouldn't take it if I thought it might be harmful...
whic is why I insist on a vegetarian formula or pharmaceutical
grade melatonin.

For those of you who might be concerned, as I am, that you've
inadvertantly been exposed to BSE (mad cow disease) as a result
of having consumed tainted melatonin made from the brains of
diseased cows (from England or the US), there is some hope
for us...particularly if we reduce our exposure...

Although it pisses me off that I've been vegan and that I've
left myself vulnerable to BSE or CJ through my use of melatonin
when I didn't insist on knowing the source of that melatonin.

It seems important to know where your melatonin comes from and/or
how it is made.

I've included some information below: FYI for those here who
may be interested in such information:


IS IT ALREADY TOO LATE?

If you have been eating beef and using other animal products for years is it
already too late? The answer is clearly, "no." In the case of human prion
related diseases, there is evidence that the total amount of prion exposure
affects the incubation period of the disease. In other words, someone who
eats a large amount of prion containing foods may develop the disease in 10
years or less, while someone with moderate, yet significantly less, exposure
may develop the condition in 15-20 years. Another with still smaller
exposure may not come down with the illness for 30 or more years. 

Thus, even if someone was doomed to come down with a condition like CJD
(because of previous exposure to prions), it may be possible to delay the
onset of the disease significantly. And don't forget: a diet that moves away
from animal products can also dramatically help you decrease your risk of
other diseases like heart disease and cancer. 


The WellnessWise Journal: reprinted with permission
Vol 2, # 7; April 14, 1996 ... Special "Mad Cow" Issue


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transmission by Milk ...CJD as Fast-Acting Alzheimer's ... U.S. Disease
present in Downer Cows ... U.S. Variant of BSE ... Inadequate British Measures 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAD COW DISEASE: A SOBERING "WAKE UP CALL"?


Copyright 1996 by David J. DeRose, MD, MPH 

"Mad Cow Disease" grabbed headlines in late March 1996 when a group of
prestigious British Scientists were constrained to admit that the fatal
disease could possibly be transmitted to humans. The news brought the
British meat industry to a virtual standstill. English folk avoided the meat
markets. The European Union and a cascade of other countries banned British
beef. 

Referred to as Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) by the medical
community, the illness is aptly named. The designation makes it clear that
we are talking about a brain disease (encephalopathy) that affects cows
(bovine). Furthermore, the disease riddles the afflicted cow's brain with
tiny holes--causing it to look like a sponge under a microscope (thus
rendering the brain "spongiform"). The lay term, "mad cow disease," in
addition to being much easier to pronounce, also conveys the fact that
infected cows may develop mental deterioration and behavioral abnormalities. 

First diagnosed in Britain in 1986, BSE has powerful emotional appeal. It is
one of a group of fatal brain diseases that can be transmitted from one
living creature to another. These diseases are technically called
"transmissible encephalopathies." Many British consumers had apparently
comforted themselves for years with the thought that it was unlikely for
such a disease to spread from cows to humans. However, even before March
1996, I would guess that scientists who were aware of this fatal cattle
disease would--if honest--have to admit to some level of discomfort. After
all, transmissible encephalopathies affect many other creatures besides
cattle. Some 16 or18 animal species have been documented to come down with
diseases that resemble BSE. Many or all of those species can apparently get
a BSE-like disease from eating infected cattle meat. Furthermore, cattle
themselves likely contracted the disease from a different species. Most
researchers believe that BSE was introduced into British cattle herds by
feeding them dead sheep carcasses which were infected with a similar illness
called "scrapie." (The sheep disease gets its name from the fact that
afflicted sheep can become mentally unstable and literally "scrape" the wool
off their hide.) 

HUMANS CAN GET TRANSMISSIBLE ENCEPHALOPATHIES

However, it is not only animals that can contract transmissible
encephalopathies. Humans can also get them. A disease called
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) can be thought of as a type of fast acting
Alzheimer's disease. This is an extremely rare illness that has typically
occurred in older individuals. I have personally only seen one patient with
this rare and fatal disease. 

We know from cannibalistic tribes in New Guinea, that a disease like CJD is
transmissible to humans. There, at one time, the dead were honored through
ritual cannibalistic rites. Children typically ate the brains of their
deceased parents during these rituals. Many of them did get a disease called
"kuru" which is a transmissible spongiform encephalopathy similar (if not
the same as) CJD. The disease sometimes took up to 30 years to develop.
Young children who engaged in these cannibalistic practices tended to
develop the illness sooner than their older siblings or peers who also
consumed infected brains. 

Many scientists had speculated that if sheep could transmit the disease to
beef, beef could transmit the disease to humans. In fact even in the United
States, a country which claims to have no evidence of BSE, there have been
reports that are less than comforting. For example, an outbreak of a related
illness, Transmissible Mink Encephalopathy occurred on a Wisconsin mink
farm. It was discovered that the mink illness was likely related to that
farmer's practice of feeding them local "downer" dairy cows. This is a
designation for cows that either are so ill that they fall down and can not
get up, or actually are found dead on the farm. Deemed unfit for human
consumption, such cows have been used for animal feed among other things. In
this case, the carcasses found their way into the minks' diets. 

The mink outbreak provided another example of probable BSE infecting other
species. (The link could not be made definitely since the "downer cow or
cows" that were fed to the mink were not autopsied.) It also raised another
concern: countries like the US who think they have nothing to worry about,
may in fact have diseased animals in their herds. 

Despite assurances from the USDA that BSE has not crossed the Atlantic, the
mink story leaves us with an uncomfortable feeling. However, there is even
more disturbing news. Laboratory research has demonstrated that different
strains of prions do exist. For example, a British researcher found that
when he injected the prions from an infected group of goats into mice, those
mice developed an encephalopathy (brain disease) characterized by
drowsiness. The prions from a different group of infected goats also caused
brain disease when injected into mice; however, instead of becoming
lethargic, the diseased mice turned hyperactive! The message was clear:
there were apparently at least two different strains of scrapie-like illness
in goats. When transmitted to another species (in this case the mice) the
infected rodents came down with one or the other of these two very different
looking diseases. 

Such research has raised an important question. If scrapie in goats could
give rise to different appearing diseases in mice, could sheep scrapie
result in more than one type of cow disease? There is some suggestion that
this could be the case. There may well be more than one strain or type of
BSE. The different types may cause different looking diseases. Some who have
been studying links between cattle and mink disease in the US, have raised
the concern that BSE is present in America, but "looks different" than the
British variant due to a different BSE strain. Specifically, the BSE in the
US may be one cause of "downer cow" disease rather than its "mad cow" cousin
in England. 

FINALLY TAKING NOTICE

It was Creutzfeldt-Jakob statistics that really got the medical community's
attention in March 1996. By that time some eight young Britons had succumbed
to this devastating illness. The unusual occurrence of the disease in young
people combined with a different pattern to the sponge-like brain
destruction, prompted leading British scientists to raise the concern that
BSE may be the source of a new variant of CJD. Further thickening the plot
was the occurrence of a worrisome cluster of CJD in British dairy farmers. 

The biggest concern, of course, is that we are just glimpsing the tip of
that proverbial iceberg. One prominent researcher is putting estimates of
BSE-related CJD well into the thousands. And the problem does not appear to
be confined to Britain. There are worrisome reports now from France and
Italy. Still others are raising concerns that some cases of "Alzheimer's"
may actually be spongiform encephalopathy. Granted, all of these conjectures
may not prove true; but what if just some of them are? Even if only in part? 

PRIONS: FRIGHTENING CARRIERS OF DISEASE

Adding to the fear of this relatively newly appreciated disease is the
nature of the BSE infectious agent. Many animal borne diseases are caused by
bacteria or viruses. Risk from these illnesses can often be decreased or
eliminated by a combination of careful washing, refrigeration and thorough
cooking. Bovine spongiform encephalopathy, however, appears to be caused by
an unusual infectious agent known as a "prion" (pronounced "pree-on").
Prions are truly very unusual infectious agents. They have no genetic
material and consist entirely of protein. Research suggests that these prion
proteins are similar in structure to proteins that occur naturally in the
brains of humans and other animals. The prions differ from those similar
normal proteins, however, in their three dimensional shape. Prions seem to
cause disease by coming into contact with those normal proteins and then
stimulating them to change their shape to mimic the prion protein. This
change in shape appears to set up a chain reaction. Normal proteins change
their shape to look like the prion proteins and then later influence
neighboring proteins to do the same. The end result is a progressively
devastating and ultimately fatal disease. No treatment has yet been discovered. 

Making the picture even bleaker is the resiliency of prions. They are not
destroyed by the usual means used to kill infectious agents. They are
resistant even to boiling at temperatures as high as 250 degrees Celsius
(well over 400 degrees Fahrenheit). They are also resistant to ionizing
radiation. 

Prion related diseases are also extremely difficult to diagnose. There is no
way to do a blood test for BSE and an infected animal does not mount any
immune response to the infection. Tell-tale signs of diseases like BSE are
usually only possible to diagnose at autopsy. However, not all infected
animals necessarily have the characteristic sponge-like brain changes. Of
particular concern, animals who carry the disease and have not yet developed
signs of BSE, may not show the characteristic brain involvement. 

WHAT ANIMAL PRODUCTS ARE FREE OF PRIONS?

Of even more concern is the fact that we do not know which tissues could
carry the infection. Most of the focus of late has been on beef. This is
warranted. Although organ tissue carries the greatest risk, animal studies
do suggest that meat itself can transmit prion-related diseases. However, we
cannot exclude the possibility that milk could also carry disease-inducing
prions. Many may recall how some years ago assurances were given that a
mother could not pass HIV to her child by nursing. Of course, we now know
that HIV can be transmitted in breast milk. Granted, prion diseases are
vastly different than HIV. The risk from milk (if it does exist) does appear
to be much smaller than from eating beef or cattle organ tissues.
Nonetheless, a British BSE expert has pointed out that there has been at
least one human case that suggests passage of prions in milk. This was the
case of a woman dying with CJD who demonstrated the infectious agent in her
colostrum (the type of breast milk made in the initial days following
delivery). 

Eating the flesh of other animals (besides cows) or drinking their milk may
not be safe either. These other animals may also be affected with a
prion-related diseases. As we have already mentioned, sheep as well as goats
can become infected with such illnesses. Even if some of these illnesses do
not seem to be easily transmitted to humans (because of what is often
called, "the species barrier"), the possibility exists that different
strains of prions could present more danger. 

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

There is one other very important aspect that needs to be reemphasized.
These transmissible spongiform encephalopathies have extremely long
incubation periods. (This is the technical term for how long it takes for a
person with the infection to actually show signs of the disease) As already
mentioned, in humans, there is evidence that kuru can take up to 30 years to
manifest itself. This is likely to be the same with CJD. With BSE, it may
take up to 6-8 years or more before infected cows show signs of the disease.
The important implication is that thousands of animals and humans may now be
infected yet not develop symptoms for many years. 

The current British proposal to slaughter all older cows may not go far
enough. If younger cows are infected they may not yet show any signs of the
disease. However, an infected cow can theoretically transmit the illness
whether or not it has yet developed symptomatic disease. The widely
publicized 1988 ban on feeding dead sheep parts to British cattle did not
stop the epidemic. When the statistics were reviewed in a 1995 report, over
half of all the British cattle that had developed BSE were born after the
ban was implemented. The important message is that young cows may be
infected, and may be able to transmit disease to humans. 

CONCLUSIONS

The Consumers' Association , an independent British "watchdog group", has
been quoted as saying that the only way to avoid BSE risk would be to stop
eating beef all together. Others are saying even more. Some are suggesting
that the time has come to recognize that disease in animals has become so
rampant that we all need to seriously consider becoming vegetarians. They
point out that BSE is just one of many fatal diseases linked to animals.
Literally hundreds of deaths have been documented in the US alone from a
host of animal related infections. Some of the most significant causative
agents may not yet be household words, however most will recognize at least
one of them: salmonella, listeria, campylobacter, and yersinia. Of course,
we can't forget that the risk of dying prematurely from the Western World's
two leading killers, cancer and heart disease, generally rises with
increasing consumption of animal products. 

If there is even a small chance of getting a severe fatal disease, some are
suggesting it would be prudent to avoid all animal products. But maybe a few
other questions are more important. What is the next transmissible disease
in animals that will be recognized? Do I want to wait for tragedy to strike
me or someone close to me--or have I already had warning enough? 

APPENDIX: IS IT ALREADY TOO LATE?


If you have been eating beef and using other animal products for years is it
already too late? The answer is clearly, "no." In the case of human prion
related diseases, there is evidence that the total amount of prion exposure
affects the incubation period of the disease. In other words, someone who
eats a large amount of prion containing foods may develop the disease in 10
years or less, while someone with moderate, yet significantly less, exposure
may develop the condition in 15-20 years. Another with still smaller
exposure may not come down with the illness for 30 or more years. 

Thus, even if someone was doomed to come down with a condition like CJD
(because of previous exposure to prions), it may be possible to delay the
onset of the disease significantly. And don't forget: a diet that moves away
from animal products can also dramatically help you decrease your risk of
other diseases like heart disease and cancer. 

FURTHER INFORMATION

Those interested in additional information on BSE and/or other animal
related diseases are encouraged to ask to be placed on the mailing list for
prepublication information on Dr. Neil Nedley's book when it becomes
available. In addition to the written text, an accompanying CD-ROM with
color visuals suitable for public presentations will be available. Send
e-mail to "docderose@aol.com" with the request "Nedley list" (leave off the
quotes, of course.) You will receive further information when it becomes
available. 

SELECTED REFERENCES:

Almond JW, Brown P, Gore SM, Hofman A, Wientjens DPWM, Ridley RM, et al.
Will bovine spongiform encephalopathy transmit to humans? . British Medical
Journal 1995;311:1415-21 (25 November) 

Brown, P. Bovine spongiform encephalopathy and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease:
The link is unproved, but no better explanation is presently forthcoming.
British Medical Journal, 30 March 1996 

Dealler SF, Lacey RW Transmissible spongiform encephalopathies: the threat
of BSE to man. Food Microbiology 1990;7: 253-79. 

Dealler, S & Kent, J. BSE: an update on the statistical evidence; British
Food Journal 1995, volume 97, p3-18; 

Gore SM. More than happenstance: Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in farmers and
young adults. British Medical Journal 1995;311:1416-8. 

Gore, SM Bovine Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease? Failures of epidemiology must be
remedied. British Medical Journal, 30 March 1996 

Gruzen, T; U.S. Never Banned Suspect Feed Fda, Keeping Watch On British Beef
Crisis, Says Safeguards Exist; Chicago Tribune, Thursday, March 28, 1996 

Hoinville LJ, Wilesmith JW, Richards MS. An investigation of risk factors
for cases of bovine spongiform encephalopathy born after the introduction of
the "feed ban." Vet Rec 1995;136:312-8. 

Lacey RW, Bovine spongiform encephalopathy is being maintained by vertical
and horizontal transmission, British Medical Journal 20 January 1996;312:180-1. 

Lacey RW. Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and bovine spongiform encephalopathy.
British Medical Journal 1996;312:180-1. (20 January) 

Patterson, WJ & Dealler, S. Bovine spongiform encephalopathy and public
health. J. Public Health Medicine. Volume 17 number 3, 1995, pages 261-268. 

Prusiner SB, Molecular Biology Of Prion Diseases. Science (Magazine) Vol.
252, pages 1515-1522; June 14, 1991. 

Prusiner SB, The Prion Diseases. Scientific American. January 1995 Volume
272 Number 1 Pages 48-57. 

Wells GAH, Wilesmith JW. The neuropathology and epidemiology of bovine
spongiform encephalopathy. Brain Pathol 1995;5:91-103. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Send all correspondence to: 

David J. DeRose, MD, MPH
Email: docderose@aol.com (preferred) 74532.622@compuserve.com 




From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun  9 12:26:53 1996
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Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 10:09:21 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: pharmaceutical grade melatonin
Sender: bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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X-Info1: For help send msg to "melatonin-request@ai.mit.edu" with word "info" in body.
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I am a melatonin user. I don't sell the stuff. I'm not an
expert in the field. My purpose is to be a knowledgable
user and to share and exchange ideas/experience with other
users.

Since I am a vegan vegetarian and also alarmed by a likely
USDA coverup of BSE or mad cow disease in the US, I share my
concerns for clean and relaible sources of melatonin.


What is pharmaceutical grade melatonin?

Natural, animal, or bovine grade melatonin contains the actual extracts of
the pineal gland. Because this melatonin comes from animal tissue, this
grade of melatonin may be accompanied by viruses or proteins that could
cause an antibody response. We highly recommend that people stay away from it. 

The alternative is synthetic or pharmaceutical grade melatonin, which is
produced from pharmaceutical grade ingredients. This form is molecularly
identical to the melatonin that we produce in our own bodies, without
unwanted extras.

Schiff Brand melatonin is pharmaceutical grade. Look also for labels
that say "suitable for use by vegetarians". There is a growing number
of manufacturers that are selling pharmaceutical grade or vegetarian
formula synthetics which are not derived from bovine or animal extracts
which may contain BSE.

Schiff Brand also contains vitamin B6. I would prefer not taking
my night-time melatonin with B6 since I take B6 in the am with
my 'wake-up' formulas. However, better B6 than BSE or bovine sourced
melatonin, whether BSE contaminated or not...

Ernie Karhu





From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 00:49:15 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:44:26, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: melatonin usersReponse
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Dear Mr. Karhu,

I gather from your E-mail that you are a new subscriber to the group.
Welcome. Your information, which is accurate, has been shared by 
others prior to your E-mail. There is a part of the E-mail that 
sounds (though that may be not what you have intended ) as if the U.S.
 manufacturers have been irresponsible in marketing the product. As 
president of NATROL, the largest MELATONIN supplier in the country, I 
cannot speak for others however, I know the owners and presidents of 
virtually every major company: Schiff, Twin labs, Source Naturals etc.
Every single one of the companies I mentioned use synthetic MELATONIN.
 I have gone on record with this group by disclosing our supplier ( 
Genzyme Pharmaceutical ) as well as our formulas. The U.S. suppliers 
are far more responsible than the public gives them credit for. In 
fact every one of the companies I listed use full G.M.P.'s ( Good 
Manufacturing Practices ) in manufacturing their MELATONIN. I hope 
this puts your anxiety to a little rest.

Elliott Balbert,
President, NATROL, INC.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 00:52:30 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:50:54, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: pharmaceutical-Additional Repsonse
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Mr. Kahu,

Natrol Melatonin is the only company in the countyr that verifies 
every batch of its product using HPLC method for purity and potency. 
Ask Schiff if they do the same and then have them prove it.

Elliott Balbert, President
Natrol, Inc

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 09:06:22 1996
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Hi evry one.

Why they all run away from that list?  any good reason?

Thanks for response.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 09:04:37 1996
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MR ELLIOTT BALBERT wrote:
> 
> Dear Mr. Karhu,
> 
> I gather from your E-mail that you are a new subscriber to the group.
> Welcome. Your information, which is accurate, has been shared by
> others prior to your E-mail. There is a part of the E-mail that
> sounds (though that may be not what you have intended ) as if the U.S.
>  manufacturers have been irresponsible in marketing the product. As
> president of NATROL, the largest MELATONIN supplier in the country, I
> cannot speak for others however, I know the owners and presidents of
> virtually every major company: Schiff, Twin labs, Source Naturals etc.
> Every single one of the companies I mentioned use synthetic MELATONIN.
>  I have gone on record with this group by disclosing our supplier (
> Genzyme Pharmaceutical ) as well as our formulas. The U.S. suppliers
> are far more responsible than the public gives them credit for. In
> fact every one of the companies I listed use full G.M.P.'s ( Good
> Manufacturing Practices ) in manufacturing their MELATONIN. I hope
> this puts your anxiety to a little rest.
> 
> Elliott Balbert,
> President, NATROL, INC.
I would like to have your price list for Melatonin and ordering 
information.

Thanks

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 09:29:54 1996
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>Schiff, Twin labs, Source Naturals etc.
>Every single one of the companies I mentioned use synthetic MELATONIN.
> I have gone on record with this group by disclosing our supplier ( 
>Genzyme Pharmaceutical ) as well as our formulas. The U.S. suppliers 
>are far more responsible than the public gives them credit for. In 
>fact every one of the companies I listed use full G.M.P.'s ( Good 
>Manufacturing Practices ) in manufacturing their MELATONIN. I hope 
>this puts your anxiety to a little rest.
>
>Elliott Balbert,
>President, NATROL, INC.
>

Mr. Balbert:

Thank you for this information.  I was about to ask you several questions,
which you already answered in this reply.

Carole
craymond@flash.net






From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 09:32:57 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:31:58 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: melatonin users personal experience -Reply
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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Don't worry. Almost all melatonin is synthetic--it's much cheaper to
manufacture. Any melatonin that is extracted from cows would be
*much* more expensive than the synthetic formulations and would
almost always indicate its source on the label. I have yet to find a
"natural" (i.e. bovine source) melatonin product on the shelves of
any health food store or pharmacy in the U.S. The stories about
blenderized rats sound like urban legends to me.

The article is typical of the misinformed journalism that is so
prevalent when it comes to melatonin.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 11:26:02 1996
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From: Ken Bourque <kbourque@netman.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Is animal melatonin a myth?
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 11:23:53 EDT
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Let's take a little poll to examine the claim, "Many brands of so called
'Natural Melatonin' (non-synthetic) are prepared from bovine pineal glands."

Russell and Reiter in their book on melatonin describe the initial efforts to
recover melatonin from bovine pineal glands.  They state that very large
numbers of bovine pineal glands were required to get even minute amounts of
melatonin.  Such a production process would be hopelessly uneconomic and
probably not even feasible on a large scale.

Can anyone name a brand that claims to be made in this way?  What exactly do
"natural" melatonin preparations say they are made from?  It would be very
useful to know if this is a real issue or just a scare tactic.

- Ken Bourque


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 14:32:44 1996
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From: Alan Pollock <nexus@vir.com>
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Subject: synthetic melatonin
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'Twas implied by a previous poster that much of the melatonin produced in
the US could be from animal origins. However, it seems from all the
reading that I've done over the past few months that virtually all
melatonin produced in the US is of the synthetic type.  (I take Sources
natural and Twin Labs product, and they are both synthetic) 

A voluminous quote about Mad Cow disease included a quote from a
'researcher' who claimed that melatonin had 'some' antioxidant properties
in some animals, but probably not in humans.  I doubt that statement as
well, since I have read that research has shown melatonin to be a good
hydroxyl scavenger in humans, and that (moreover) specific receptors are
not necessarily needed (which is apparently a plus and adds to melatonin's
antioxidant effectiveness). 


I hope this list survives the current rash of de-scribers, as, just like 
before, they can't seem to read properly. Nex



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 15:37:04 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 15:22:07 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: synthetic melatonin -Reply
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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I found the Mad Cow post quite interesting, although the part about
melatonin coming from bovine sources seems to be a persistent
anti-melatonin argument that is not based in fact and won't go away.
The rumor of blenderized rats is so laughable I can't believe the
reporter who wrote the story printed it.

I, too, have heard that the anti-oxidant properties of mel. were
discovered with in vitro experiments with *human* cells. I would
appreciate if anyone could post verification of this.

The oodles of people de-subscribing is quite annoying, particularly
since they can't seem to follow the rules that are rather explicitly
stated in their welcoming messages. I guess one shouldn't expect
people to actually read something that is sent to them.

I used to post the directions on how to unsubscribe at least a few
times a month, but grew weary of it. Hitting the delete key is much
easier, though equally annoying in its own right.

Mike


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 20:45:09 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:44:26 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: Re: pharmaceutical-Additional Repsonse
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Re: 

>Natrol Melatonin is the only company in the countyr that verifies 
>every batch of its product using HPLC method for purity and potency. 
>Ask Schiff if they do the same and then have them prove it.
>
>Elliott Balbert, President
>Natrol, Inc

Thanks for the information. I certainly want more than hype
and am not recommending Schiff. I know nothing more about their
products than their ads.

I certaily want a product that is as "pure" as possible and without
any unnecessary additive and/or fillers.

I'm sure there are more folks like me who are interested in learning
more about specific products and production methods. While I am a
computer software and hardware test engineer now, I was a
chemical engineer.

Ernie Karhu



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 20:56:51 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:56:17 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: Re: melatonin usersReponse
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Re: 

>
>I gather from your E-mail that you are a new subscriber to the group.
>Welcome. Your information, which is accurate, has been shared by 
>others prior to your E-mail. There is a part of the E-mail that 
>sounds (though that may be not what you have intended ) as if the U.S.
> manufacturers have been irresponsible in marketing the product. As 
>president of NATROL, the largest MELATONIN supplier in the country, I 
>cannot speak for others however, I know the owners and presidents of 
>virtually every major company: Schiff, Twin labs, Source Naturals etc.
>Every single one of the companies I mentioned use synthetic MELATONIN.
> I have gone on record with this group by disclosing our supplier ( 
>Genzyme Pharmaceutical ) as well as our formulas. The U.S. suppliers 
>are far more responsible than the public gives them credit for. In 
>fact every one of the companies I listed use full G.M.P.'s ( Good 
>Manufacturing Practices ) in manufacturing their MELATONIN. I hope 
>this puts your anxiety to a little rest.
>
>Elliott Balbert,
>President, NATROL, INC.
>

Yes. I am a new subscriber to the list. I decided to subscribe
after I had heard some "news" that indicated there might be
some risk associated with some brands of melatonin. I'm here to
learn. 

And yes, thanks, your remarks gives rest to the anxiety of uncertainty.
As a matter of fact, I have been using Twin Labs melatonin and other
smart nutrients such as their Choline Cocktail. Clearly I have no
need for alarm.

I wish that the suppliers such as Twin Labs would have marked their
labels as pharmaceutical grade.

I will pass your message along to members of my own list: The Medicine Wheel.
Most of my friends are melatonin users and vegan vegetarians. Thanks again.

Ernie Karhu


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 21:08:14 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:07:41 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: Re: melatonin users personal experience -Reply
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Re: 

>Don't worry. Almost all melatonin is synthetic--it's much cheaper to
>manufacture. Any melatonin that is extracted from cows would be
>*much* more expensive than the synthetic formulations and would
>almost always indicate its source on the label. I have yet to find a
>"natural" (i.e. bovine source) melatonin product on the shelves of
>any health food store or pharmacy in the U.S. The stories about
>blenderized rats sound like urban legends to me.
>
>The article is typical of the misinformed journalism that is so
>prevalent when it comes to melatonin.
>

Good to know that. While I suspected the possibility, it certainly
pays to advertise such information in light of the many blenderized
rat stories that abound on the net.

Certainly restores my confidence in the health food industry.

Thanks.

Ernie Karhu


>


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 21:21:28 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:20:55 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Ernest Karhu <ekarhu@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Is animal melatonin a myth?
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Re: 

>Let's take a little poll to examine the claim, "Many brands of so called
>'Natural Melatonin' (non-synthetic) are prepared from bovine pineal glands."
>
>Russell and Reiter in their book on melatonin describe the initial efforts to
>recover melatonin from bovine pineal glands.  They state that very large
>numbers of bovine pineal glands were required to get even minute amounts of
>melatonin.  Such a production process would be hopelessly uneconomic and
>probably not even feasible on a large scale.
>
>Can anyone name a brand that claims to be made in this way?  What exactly do
>"natural" melatonin preparations say they are made from?  It would be very
>useful to know if this is a real issue or just a scare tactic.
>
>- Ken Bourque
>
Can't add to your poll but your point is well taken.

What in God's name could motivate the production of such crap?
If this is *just* a scare tactic...and it appears that it could
likely be so, what is the point?

If the folks on the Mad Cow Home Page think they're going to
score any point with the vegan/health food crowd by such
tactics...or if the Physician's for Responsible Medicine point
to these "fact sheets" it is irresponsible if it is a scare
tactic.

Let us analyze these larger issues that pull us apart. Why use
scare tactics rather than our sharing common concerns...and
pooling information?

Ernie Karhu


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 10 21:26:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:13:32 -0400
From: "Arthur A. Hough" <ahough@mnsinc.com>
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I had written earlier asking why magnesium stearate, an ingredient which 
many people are allergic to, would be used in the majority of 
supplements today.  It supposedly is used as a "flow control" agent or 
"lubricant" in the manufacturing process.  I used to be able to avoid it 
by buying the better brands but now I find wide acceptance and usage of 
it in most tablets and capsules.  Mr. Balbert was researching the reason 
for its use but apparently it "fell through the cracks" with all the 
other questions concerning melatonin.  I have managed to avoid this 
substance by purchasing Life Extension's formula and have noticed no 
"grogginess or headaches" the morning after.  I personally know of 
three other people that have had the same response from this ingredient.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 00:37:45 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:34:12, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Here to Help
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Dear Mr. Kahu,

If I can add any additional information ofr you or your associates 
please feel free to contact me. Although I have a commercial interest.
..that comes second to honestly informing this group first. we 
appreciate your participation.

Elliott Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 00:37:18 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:29:14, -0500
To: MELATONIN@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Label Laws-Re Melatonin
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Several weeks ago I was asked to respond to a question regarding full 
disclosure about the contents of Melatonin products. We asked our 
legal council to prepare a complete response regarding this subject 
as well as labelling laws that relate to DSHEA. The following is the 
current interpretation of the law as provided by the law firm of 
Gronek and Armstrong, our law firm in Chicago specializing in FDA and 
FTC matters. Here are their eaxct comments:

Melatonin is a "dietary supplement" as defined in Section 201 (ff) of 
the
Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act which was added by the Dietary 
Supplement
Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA).  This provision defines 
"dietary
supplement" to included, amongst other things, products containing a 
dietary
substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing intake 
of that
substance it is a dietary supplement. 

The DSHEA also established specific requirements for the labeling of 
dietary
supplement products.  However, the FDA has not finalized regulations
concerning such requirements and, thus, there are currently no 
applicable
requirements concerning the nutrition information required on 
dietary
supplement product labels.

However, the following general requirements for food product labels 
apply:

1.	The name, street address, city, state and Zip Code of either the
manufacturer, packer or distributor must appear on the label.

2.	An accurate statement of the net amount of food in the packet is 
required.


3.	The common or usual name of the food must appear on the principal 
display
panel. 

4.	The product ingredients must be listed.

The following will respond to the specific questions asked in your 
fax:

1.	Melatonin is classified as a "dietary supplement" and, as such, is 
not
subject to the same labeling requirements as processed foods, for 
example,
breakfast cereals. 

2.	The FDA has had a policy of not requiring the listing of technical 
product
aids, for example, fillers, flow agents, etc., on dietary supplement 
labels.
 However, when the FDA issues its dietary supplement regulations we
anticipate that listing of all ingredients will be required.


If you have any questions regarding this interpretation please feel 
free to contact me.

Elliott Balbert, President
Natrol, Inc

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 00:49:22 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:40:30, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Prices
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I was asked to provide our price list and locations. Yuo can get all 
of our pricing information by calling 1-888-2NATROL (888-262-8765) 
Locations are drugstores and Health Food Stores everywhere....not 
necessarily all sizes and potentcies. Mail order companies like L. & 
H. will handle any item you can't locate in your area.

Thanks for Asking

Elliott Balbert, President
Natrol, Inc

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 03:21:21 1996
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Date: 11 Jun 96 03:18:05 EDT
From: "Jeffrey Hyman (Egham)" <100102.2264@compuserve.com>
To: melatonin <MELATONIN@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: UK distribution
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It's quite tricky to get Melatonin here in the UK.

I wonder if anyone can ship it to me from the US.  I'm prepared to buy it and
distribute it here to a group of friends?

Jeffrey Hyman
32 Chandos Way
London NW11 7HF
Telephone +44 (0) 181 458 6743
Fax +44 (0) 181 731 8992
100102.2264@compuserve.com

Thanks.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 07:24:49 1996
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From: "McCall, Adrian" <McCallA@wstc01.agw.bt.co.uk>
To: Melatonin Questions <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Effects of Melatonin on Cancer
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 12:14:00 GMT
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I have a friend who has been referred to a specialist by his GP with a 
suspected malignant melanoma on his leg.

He has temporarily suspended his use of melatonin worried that its continued 
use may accelerate any tumor growth. He has read that leukemia for example 
can be adversely affected by melatonin. Since we live in England and have 
imported the Melatonin from the states, he does not think that asking his GP 
will be very effective!

Anyone else had any similar experiences / got any advice.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 09:12:42 1996
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:12:31 +0100
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: pmd11@phy.cam.ac.uk (Peter Dickson)
Subject: Non-synthetic (animal) melatonin
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In melatonin V1 #207 Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu> and Ken
Bourque <kbourque@netman.navsea.navy.mil> express doubts as to whether
melatonin derived from animal products, as opposed to synthetic melatonin,
is available for sale in the US.

However, on a recent trip to the US, before I was aware of the distinction,
I bought a bottle of 3 mg melatonin tablets from one of the Great Earth
Vitamin Stores (Albuquerque).  The label describes it as "Natural
melatonin", so I telephoned the company to ask how it was made.  They
assured me that it was derived from animal products (bovine pineal glands
when I pressed for the details).  Great Earth appear to have a web site at
http://www.greatearth.com, but it makes no mention of this product.  In the
light of the recent discussions on this list, I wonder whether this
information is correct.  Is anyone in a position to comment authoritatively
on this point?

=======================================================================
Peter Dickson        | PCS, Cavendish Laboratory,|
pmd11@phy.cam.ac.uk  | Madingley Road,           | Tel. +44 1223 337205
pmd11@cus.cam.ac.uk  | Cambridge, CB3 0HE,       | Fax. +44 1223 350266
pmd@fern.demon.co.uk | England.                  |
=======================================================================



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 09:32:49 1996
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:30:18 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Effects of Melatonin on Cancer -Reply
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>From the reading I've done, the reason melatonin is not recommended
for people with leukemia is that it is an *autoimmune* disease, which
means the person's immune system effectively turns against him. Since
melatonin has a strengthening effect on the immune system, it could
accelerate an autoimmune condition such as leukemia or lupus. A
malignant melanoma is not an autoimmune condition, however, so the
warning does not apply to that condition. 

There is some evidence that melatonin may be helpful in cancer
treatment. In fact, rat studies suggest that it may prevent skin
cancer formation. I suggest your friend read whatever books he can
get his hands on and make an informed decision. The popular books
contain references to studies of mel. as an anti-cancer treatment,
and maybe he can reference these studies. Good luck to him!


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 09:46:56 1996
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From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Non-synthetic (animal) melatonin -Reply
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Perhaps you could email Great Earth and ask them about their product.
It's frightening to think cow brain extracts are being used in some
products without saying so on the label, although I'm sure this is a
rare case. Do you remember how much they charged for their "natural"
melatonin?

I almost took a supplement once for cognitive enhancement which
contained ginkgo, choline, and other ingredients to optimize brain
function. Being prudent, I checked the label and found the company
had added something to their product that caused me great
concern--freeze-dried bovine brain extract. I was disgusted, and
returned the product.

Someone selling Life Plus once gave me a pill that was supposedly a
"DHEA" precursor (wild yam). I found out later that this pill also
contained "orchic" which is beef testicles. I am a vegetarian, and
resented not finding this out before I took it. I was extremely angry
at the salesperson. Watch out for this ingredient in muscle-building
and weight gain products.

Some health food stores also sell "glandulars" which are freeze-dried
glands of animals, often cows. I think it's wise to avoid all of these
products.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 11:39:52 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:38:56, -0500
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Mr. Hyman,

Contact me directly at elliott@natrol.com and I'll guide you to the 
correct sources for import into the U.K.

Elliott Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 12:30:57 1996
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Does the recommendation of not using Melatonin with children "of any age" include 
single time use for jet lag effects in 14 and 15 year olds?

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 13:26:29 1996
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 I'm curious, is this ingredient used in the Natrol product? I have used

it several times, and although I'm quite pleased with its effectiveness in
bringing on sleep, I have invariably experienced a "hangover" like that
described by the other poster. I was wondering if it may be due to the
strong B-vitamin dosage, or what. Perhaps that other ingredient could be
the cause. I don't know. Also, I'm curious if there is a Natrol product
without the B vitamin? I like the HPLC testing of Natrol product, but I'm
interested in getting the straight M with a minimum of other ingredients.
It would be nice to get _only_ M in little gels or something, without any
fillers or additives. 

 -- 
lobotomy@pagan.net * pgp key @ www.pagan.net/~lobotomy/ * jyardley@nyx.net
Tantric Lobotomy Commission*Art meets Technology at the border of Insanity
* fuque shet pass hill darn clat twet batch cant osshale corksicker CDA! *


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 18:45:32 1996
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At 02:12 PM 6/11/96 +0100, you wrote:
>In melatonin V1 #207 Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu> and Ken
>Bourque <kbourque@netman.navsea.navy.mil> express doubts as to whether
>melatonin derived from animal products, as opposed to synthetic melatonin,
>is available for sale in the US.
>
>However, on a recent trip to the US, before I was aware of the distinction,
>I bought a bottle of 3 mg melatonin tablets from one of the Great Earth
>Vitamin Stores (Albuquerque).  The label describes it as "Natural
>melatonin", so I telephoned the company to ask how it was made.  They
>assured me that it was derived from animal products (bovine pineal glands
>when I pressed for the details).  Great Earth appear to have a web site at
>http://www.greatearth.com, but it makes no mention of this product.  In the
>light of the recent discussions on this list, I wonder whether this
>information is correct.  Is anyone in a position to comment authoritatively
>on this point?
>
>=======================================================================
>Peter Dickson        | PCS, Cavendish Laboratory,|
>pmd11@phy.cam.ac.uk  | Madingley Road,           | Tel. +44 1223 337205
>pmd11@cus.cam.ac.uk  | Cambridge, CB3 0HE,       | Fax. +44 1223 350266
>pmd@fern.demon.co.uk | England.                  |
>=======================================================================
>
>
>
One obvious indication of "natural" or "bovine" malatonin should
be the purchase price.  If you paid below $10 per bottle
of 3-mg, 60-tablet product, you got a sythetic product.  If the price,
however, for the same was $11 or more it might be the bovine
type.
What I have discovered is that some suppliers/manufacturers/distributors
claim to provide a "natural" product.  When pressed for the specification
of the active ingredient they show an analysis typical of the synthetic
melatonin (usually, an inferior grade).

Again, the quality issue is of the utmost importance.


Regards,


Peter H. Karpinski, Ph.D., President
BATORY A.M., Inc.
Supplier of Q-LIFE (TM) MELATONIN 
(active ingredient by HPLC >= 99.5%
no Vitamin B)


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 21:52:35 1996
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:32:54 -0700
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Philip Seyer <pseyer@best.com>
Subject: Re: Use of magnesium stearate in supplements
Cc: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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I am taking liquid melatonin and find it convenient and easy to take.   I
got it at a local drug store (Wallgreens).
It's called "The Melatonin Solution , A sublingual product." Made by
Pharmaceutical Laboratories, Inc.,
Arlington, Tx  76006, USA.  One dropper full gives me 1 mm.  No need for
water, etc.  No other vitamins added.
 

At 11:26 AM 6/11/96 -0600, Chris Y wrote:
>it several times, and although I'm quite pleased with its effectiveness in
>bringing on sleep, I have invariably experienced a "hangover" like that
>described by the other poster. I was wondering if it may be due to the
>strong B-vitamin dosage, or what. Perhaps that other ingredient could be
>the cause. I don't know. Also, I'm curious if there is a Natrol product
>without the B vitamin? I like the HPLC testing of Natrol product, but I'm
>interested in getting the straight M with a minimum of other ingredients.
>It would be nice to get _only_ M in little gels or something, without any
>fillers or additives. 
>
===========================================================================
Philip Seyer -- author of *What Makes Music Work* -- 
"A lucid, well-organzied introduction to music theory" -- American Library
Association
http://www.ilovemusic.com  <== Phil's I love music Web site.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 11 23:05:39 1996
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Please remove my name from your list

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 02:52:46 1996
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Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:    10 Jun 96 13:52
    To:      melatonin@ai.mit.edu
    Subject: Remove

Was read at 8:51, 12 Jun 96.


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 04:11:53 1996
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From: "Rudolf K. Huebscher" <huebscher@fivenet.ch>
To: "'melatonin@ai.mit.edu'" <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: magnesium starate
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Arthur A. Hough wrote:
>>>asking why manesium stearate, an ingredient which many people are 
allergic to, would be used in the majority of supplements today<<<

I am not a pharmaceutical manufacturing expert but have some knowledge on 
the subject.  Powders have the tendency to "cake": they absorb moisture and 
therefore flow only with difficulty through the tubes of filling machines. 
 For decades, magnesium stearate has been the classical pharmaceutical aid 
to counteract caking.  It is listed in the United States Pharmcopeia, is 
generally considered devoid of any adverse effects, and is less expensive 
than other flow agents. Another good flow agent I know of is colloidal 
silicon dioxide, an innocuous substance.

Unfortunately, however, every substance can cause allergy in persons 
hypersentitive to the substance.  I have known people who were allergic to 
strawberries or egg yolk. Knowing your hypersensitivity to magnesium 
stearate, you will have to read the labels not only of food supplements 
such as melatonin, but food labels in general more carefully than the 
average person.  When it comes to drugs, where I know magnesium stearate to 
be widely used, the label won't help you (unless the manufacturer 
voluntarily lists also non-active ingredients) and your pharmacist may have 
to call the manufacturer for you to obtain this information.

Mr. Elliott Balbert, whom I want to thank here, has gone to the trouble and 
expense of obtaining a formal legal opinion on the subject of ingredient 
labelling of food supplemets, in response to a question I had posted 
earlier.  Contrary to what I had expected to be the case, we know know that 
food supplements do not (yet), by law, have to list all ingredients. 
Fortunately, however, there is no law agains full ingredient labelling for 
this class of products, and considerate manufacturers, including Mr. 
Balbert's company, do list them all.

Rudolf



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 05:03:24 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:40:27, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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Re Teenage Travellers:

Their bodies produce enough Melatonin. It isn't necessary. Having 
said that...at soage levels of 3 to 6 mg. it won't hurt either.

Elliott Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 05:08:36 1996
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_?= Mekelnburg <j.mekelnburg@elmshorn.netsurf.de>
Subject: Dosage and risks
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Hello,

can anybody tell me something about ihe average dosage
and the known risks of taking melatonin ?

As you know, distribution of Melatonin in Germany is prohibited.
That's the reason, why I can't get enough Information about
Melatonin.

Maybe anyone can help, thanks...

J. Mekelnburg, Dr.


J=F6rg und Petra Mekelnburg
E - Mail: j.mekelnburg@elmshorn.netsurf.de
Homepage : http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1682
                        http://elmshorn.netsurf.de/~j.mekelnburg
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D
J. Mekelnburg
Fr=F6belstrasse 6
25337 Elmshorn
Germany
+49-4121-78206


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 05:11:17 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:55:48, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Chris Y
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Dear Chris,

We make a 1mg pure Meatonin tablet. It's available at Walgreens, Osco 
Drug, Savon Drug....Eckerd and several others. Most any Health food 
Store will order it for you. ( don't let them switch you to another 
brand) If you have trouble locating it let me know where you live and 
we'll locate an outlet for you. p.s. stayed tuned for a soft gel in 
about a month.

Elliott Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 10:26:26 1996
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From: Ken Bourque <kbourque@netman.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Meaning of natural
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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A product labeling question for our melatonin producers:

Is there an FDA-defined criteria for using the term "natural" on dietary
supplements?  If so, what is it?  What can (and can't) we infer about a
product labeled as "natural?"

Ken Bourque


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From: Kenneth L Bourque <kbourque@osf1.gmu.edu>
Message-Id: <9606130048.AA22873@mason2.gmu.edu>
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Subject: One to avoid
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Here's a "worst of all worlds" formulation.  But are they really saying they
have brain, hypothalamus, and pituitary tissue in their product?

http://worldplus.com/david/lsom.html

> What you won't find in those other melatonin bottles on the shelf is all the
> other products that Life Plus puts into their product to make it work three
> times as strong as a bottle with 5 mg. Not only does Somniset contain
> melatonin but it contains the essential concentrated tissue nutrients, from
> the brain, hypothalamus and pituitary. Factor in the amino acids,
> L-Glutamine, L-Glutamic acid, L-Tyrosine, and herbs such as valerian root,
> hops, passion flower, chamomile, and minerals such as calcium lactate,
> Magnesium Gluconate, and zinc picolinate. Add to that Life Plus's patented
> PhytoZyme Base for bioavailability and synergistic co-factors and folks it's
> like comparing a yugo to a cadillac.

Ken Bourque


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 21:27:04 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:19:31, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Meaning of natural-Reposne
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Mr. Bourque,

Can you elaborate on what you are trying to determine by your 
question about Natrual? The answer to me is obvious and i do not know 
of a ruling at this time.

elliott Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 21:34:25 1996
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:51 -0600 (CST)
From: dkennaway@medicine.adelaide.edu.au
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To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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          I would like to introduce myself to the group.  I am an 
          Australian medical researcher who has spent his entire 
          professional life (23 years) conducting research on 
          melatonin and the part of the brain the is often called the 
          biological clock (the suprachiasmatic nucleus) which 
          controls melatonin production.  I have been a silent reader 
          of the comments on this news-group now for many months and 
          have read many things that have disturbed me.
          
          The first thing everyone should be made aware of is that 
          what the melatonin produced by our pineal gland does in the 
          normal course of our lives is likely to be quite different 
          from what it does when people take it in massive amounts as 
          a DRUG.  The suppliers of melatonin in health food stores 
          would like the general public to believe that they are 
          buying a dietary supplement (note the posting a while back 
          about the regulations under which melatonin is sold in the 
          USA) when what they are really selling is melatonin as a 
          drug.  In Australia advertisements for vitamins always 
          stress that the should be taken only when the dietary intake 
          of the vitamins is inadequate!   Most people taking 
          melatonin will find upon testing that the make quite 
          adequate amounts of melatonin.  At worst they may find that 
          they are making melatonin at an inappropriate time of night, 
          most commonly the production will commence late.  This can 
          be corrected along with many of the sleep problems by paying 
          attention to light exposure, especially in the morning and 
          what is called sleep hygiene (ie bed is for sleeping, not 
          for reading books watching TV and eating pizzas!).  While 
          there is some evidence that melatonin is present in 
          extremely low amounts in some foods there is no evidence 
          that it can play a role in humans
          
          To date all the studies on melatonin and sleep have really 
          addressed the effects of melatonin as a DRUG given in large 
          doses. Studies many years ago in our laboratory using very 
          sophisticated mass spectrometry techniques, showed that 
          humans produce approximately 40 micrograms (0.04 mg) of 
          melatonin at night.  This melatonin is produced and secreted 
          continuously over 10 or more hours to produce concentrations 
          in the blood of around 100 picograms per millilitre of 
          blood.  This is quite different from the pattern of 
          appearance and amount of melatonin in blood following even 
          the lowest dose melatonin pills (500 micrograms to 5000 
          micrograms).  The resultant blood levels from ingested 
          melatonin are enormous but because melatonin is rapidly 
          metabolised by the liver and excreted with a half life of 
          the order of 30 minutes, it is gone from the circulation 
          within only a few hours.  
          
          I have also been intrigued by the postings mentioning the 
          various formulations of melatonin, ie slow release colloidal 
          etc.  As consumers you should be asking for evidence from 
          the health drug companies that the melatonin in the blood 
          does in fact stay elevated for prolonged periods as claimed. 
           There have been no studies reported in the scientific 
          literature on the various formulations promoted by the 
          melatonin suppliers.  
          
          Melatonin in skin cream! 
          Can it be absorbed into the still living layers of the skin? 
          Melatonin is a lipid soluble hormone and so is likely to 
          enter the bloodstream. To what extent will depend on many 
          factors including the cream base and skin type etc.  There 
          is a lot of research being conducted on transdermal delivery 
          of melatonin for its more logical uses, ie correction of 
          circadian rhythm 
          disorders.
          
          Just a thought for you to ponder:  
          You have no doubt read in the books on melatonin and on the 
          internet that melatonin production and secretion decreases 
          with age.  What has in fact been studied are the levels of 
          melatonin in many people of different ages.  There have been 
          no studies showing that the production of melatonin 
          decreased with age in individuals.  Now it is also well 
          known and indeed is a bit of a nuisance to researchers that 
          there is an enormous variation in melatonin levels between 
          subjects of the same age. Thus there are a significant 
          number of 20-30 year olds who make very little melatonin and 
          do not have any apparent pathology be they sleep disorders 
          or any other.  We also know that not everyone lives to be 80 
          or 90 years old, but when we measure melatonin in these old 
          people they do seem to have lower levels of melatonin.  
          
          Did they live to be 80 or 90 years old DESPITE of, or 
          BECAUSE they have lower melatonin levels?
          
          Rather than preventing us from ageing as Pierpaolli and 
          Regelson suggest, might not the long term ingestion of high 
          levels of melatonin PREVENT us from growing old?
          
          An interesting sidelight to this anti aging research is that 
          the mice that Pierpaolli and Regelson used in their pineal 
          transplant experiments and are a key to the whole hypothesis 
          DO NOT MAKE MELATONIN.  The most commonly used laboratory 
          mice strains have mutations in the genes responsible for the 
          production of enzymes making melatonin!
          
          One other thing:  
          I continually read on the news group, comments about natural 
          and synthetic melatonin and how synthetic is the best and 
          safest.  It probably is.  Much more to the point though is 
          that there is so little melatonin in the pineal glands of 
          cows and sheep that to extract enough melatonin for a single 
          3 mg tablet would require approximately 30,000 cow 
          pineals!!!  Enough said!  Those companies saying they use 
          melatonin from natural sources are lying and if they use any 
          animal extracts at all are criminally dangerous.
          
          Finally, melatonin is an fascinating HORMONE, but one which 
          we are only just beginning to understand.  It probably isn't 
          dangerous to take large amounts of it as a drug, but no-one 
          really knows as there have been no controlled studies on 
          people taking it for prolonged periods.  Remember that when 
          we as scientists do our studies on humans we take great 
          pains to select subjects who are healthy and not on any 
          other medication etc.  We have learnt from these studies 
          that melatonin production is controlled by our biological 
          clock and in turn seems to be able to reset that same clock. 
           Thus we have the promise of melatonin or an analogue being 
          used to correct some quite specific sleep disorders for 
          example.  There is no information available on the effects 
          of melatonin as a DRUG in people with the multitude of 
          diseases and syndromes that exist or on the interactions 
          between melatonin and the thousands of drugs that people are 
          wont to ingest or have to take.  Those people who are taking 
          melatonin to see what happens and even those who are taking 
          it to help with their sleep are playing Russian Roulette.  
          Is jet-lag so bad that you would even consider giving such a 
          poorly evaluated DRUG to your child?  They should wait for 
          the research to be done properly.  They should lobby the 
          health drug companies to SUPPORT MELATONIN RESEARCH rather 
          than take the money and run as they do at the moment.
          
          Dave Kennaway

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 12 21:39:54 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:15:08, -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Cc: Griffoto@aol.com
Subject: magnesium starate-comment
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Mr. Huebscher,

thank you for your recognition. your comments regarding Magesium 
Stearate are accurate.

elliott Balbert, President,
Natrol, Inc.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 08:43:20 1996
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From: D Kralis <dkralis@cris.com>
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dkennaway@medicine.adelaide.edu.au wrote:
> 
> 
>           I would like to introduce myself to the group.  I am an
>           Australian medical researcher who has spent his entire
>           professional life (23 years) conducting research on
>           melatonin and the part of the brain the is often called the
>           biological clock (the suprachiasmatic nucleus) which
>           controls melatonin production.  I have been a silent reader
>           of the comments on this news-group now for many months and
>           have read many things that have disturbed me.
> 
>           The first thing everyone should be made aware of is that
>           what the melatonin produced by our pineal gland does in the
>           normal course of our lives is likely to be quite different
>           from what it does when people take it in massive amounts as
>           a DRUG.  The suppliers of melatonin in health food stores
>           would like the general public to believe that they are
>           buying a dietary supplement (note the posting a while back
>           about the regulations under which melatonin is sold in the
>           USA) when what they are really selling is melatonin as a
>           drug.  In Australia advertisements for vitamins always
>           stress that the should be taken only when the dietary intake
>           of the vitamins is inadequate!   Most people taking
>           melatonin will find upon testing that the make quite
>           adequate amounts of melatonin.  At worst they may find that
>           they are making melatonin at an inappropriate time of night,
>           most commonly the production will commence late.  This can
>           be corrected along with many of the sleep problems by paying
>           attention to light exposure, especially in the morning and
>           what is called sleep hygiene (ie bed is for sleeping, not
>           for reading books watching TV and eating pizzas!).  While
>           there is some evidence that melatonin is present in
>           extremely low amounts in some foods there is no evidence
>           that it can play a role in humans
> 
>           To date all the studies on melatonin and sleep have really
>           addressed the effects of melatonin as a DRUG given in large
>           doses. Studies many years ago in our laboratory using very
>           sophisticated mass spectrometry techniques, showed that
>           humans produce approximately 40 micrograms (0.04 mg) of
>           melatonin at night.  This melatonin is produced and secreted
>           continuously over 10 or more hours to produce concentrations
>           in the blood of around 100 picograms per millilitre of
>           blood.  This is quite different from the pattern of
>           appearance and amount of melatonin in blood following even
>           the lowest dose melatonin pills (500 micrograms to 5000
>           micrograms).  The resultant blood levels from ingested
>           melatonin are enormous but because melatonin is rapidly
>           metabolised by the liver and excreted with a half life of
>           the order of 30 minutes, it is gone from the circulation
>           within only a few hours.
> 
>           I have also been intrigued by the postings mentioning the
>           various formulations of melatonin, ie slow release colloidal
>           etc.  As consumers you should be asking for evidence from
>           the health drug companies that the melatonin in the blood
>           does in fact stay elevated for prolonged periods as claimed.
>            There have been no studies reported in the scientific
>           literature on the various formulations promoted by the
>           melatonin suppliers.
> 
>           Melatonin in skin cream!
>           Can it be absorbed into the still living layers of the skin?
>           Melatonin is a lipid soluble hormone and so is likely to
>           enter the bloodstream. To what extent will depend on many
>           factors including the cream base and skin type etc.  There
>           is a lot of research being conducted on transdermal delivery
>           of melatonin for its more logical uses, ie correction of
>           circadian rhythm
>           disorders.
> 
>           Just a thought for you to ponder:
>           You have no doubt read in the books on melatonin and on the
>           internet that melatonin production and secretion decreases
>           with age.  What has in fact been studied are the levels of
>           melatonin in many people of different ages.  There have been
>           no studies showing that the production of melatonin
>           decreased with age in individuals.  Now it is also well
>           known and indeed is a bit of a nuisance to researchers that
>           there is an enormous variation in melatonin levels between
>           subjects of the same age. Thus there are a significant
>           number of 20-30 year olds who make very little melatonin and
>           do not have any apparent pathology be they sleep disorders
>           or any other.  We also know that not everyone lives to be 80
>           or 90 years old, but when we measure melatonin in these old
>           people they do seem to have lower levels of melatonin.
> 
>           Did they live to be 80 or 90 years old DESPITE of, or
>           BECAUSE they have lower melatonin levels?
> 
>           Rather than preventing us from ageing as Pierpaolli and
>           Regelson suggest, might not the long term ingestion of high
>           levels of melatonin PREVENT us from growing old?
> 
>           An interesting sidelight to this anti aging research is that
>           the mice that Pierpaolli and Regelson used in their pineal
>           transplant experiments and are a key to the whole hypothesis
>           DO NOT MAKE MELATONIN.  The most commonly used laboratory
>           mice strains have mutations in the genes responsible for the
>           production of enzymes making melatonin!
> 
>           One other thing:
>           I continually read on the news group, comments about natural
>           and synthetic melatonin and how synthetic is the best and
>           safest.  It probably is.  Much more to the point though is
>           that there is so little melatonin in the pineal glands of
>           cows and sheep that to extract enough melatonin for a single
>           3 mg tablet would require approximately 30,000 cow
>           pineals!!!  Enough said!  Those companies saying they use
>           melatonin from natural sources are lying and if they use any
>           animal extracts at all are criminally dangerous.
> 
>           Finally, melatonin is an fascinating HORMONE, but one which
>           we are only just beginning to understand.  It probably isn't
>           dangerous to take large amounts of it as a drug, but no-one
>           really knows as there have been no controlled studies on
>           people taking it for prolonged periods.  Remember that when
>           we as scientists do our studies on humans we take great
>           pains to select subjects who are healthy and not on any
>           other medication etc.  We have learnt from these studies
>           that melatonin production is controlled by our biological
>           clock and in turn seems to be able to reset that same clock.
>            Thus we have the promise of melatonin or an analogue being
>           used to correct some quite specific sleep disorders for
>           example.  There is no information available on the effects
>           of melatonin as a DRUG in people with the multitude of
>           diseases and syndromes that exist or on the interactions
>           between melatonin and the thousands of drugs that people are
>           wont to ingest or have to take.  Those people who are taking
>           melatonin to see what happens and even those who are taking
>           it to help with their sleep are playing Russian Roulette.
>           Is jet-lag so bad that you would even consider giving such a
>           poorly evaluated DRUG to your child?  They should wait for
>           the research to be done properly.  They should lobby the
>           health drug companies to SUPPORT MELATONIN RESEARCH rather
>           than take the money and run as they do at the moment.
> 
>           Dave Kennaway

Thank you Dr. Kennaway. After reading letter after letter (over 500 in all) of pseudo-scientific dribble and speculation, I was just about to
"unsubscribe" from this group. 

Dan Kralis M.M.Sci. 73540.1466@compuserve.com

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 12:34:45 1996
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To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: pmd11@phy.cam.ac.uk (Peter Dickson)
Subject: Non-synthetic (animal) melatonin
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Further to my post of 11th June (#208), and in answer to Michael Hughes
question, I did e-mail Great Earth to ask about the product (twice) but
received no reply - that is why I ended up telephoning.

As to the price, it was about $15 for 100  3 mg tablets if I recall correctly.

For the record, it seemed to work.

One further observation; in a drugstore in Los Alamos I found melatonin (I
don't remember the manufacturer) which stated explicitly on the label that
it was extracted from pineal glands.

=======================================================================
Peter Dickson        | PCS, Cavendish Laboratory,|
pmd11@phy.cam.ac.uk  | Madingley Road,           | Tel. +44 1223 337205
pmd11@cus.cam.ac.uk  | Cambridge, CB3 0HE,       | Fax. +44 1223 350266
pmd@fern.demon.co.uk | England.                  |
=======================================================================



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 15:55:25 1996
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From: Kenneth L Bourque <kbourque@osf1.gmu.edu>
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Mr. Balbert,

To clarify my question on the meaning of "natural," there are certain terms
which the FDA does not permit to be used on food products unless certain
criteria are met.  A notorious example would be the case involving orange juice
a few years ago.  There was a brand of orange juice called, I believe, "Fresh
Choice."  The FDA objected to the use of the term "fresh" because the juice was
not fresh, it was made from concentrate or some such.  The company declined to
change the name.  Whereupon, the FDA seized several thousand gallons of the
juice.  The juice itself was perfectly safe to drink: the entire issue was the
use of the term "fresh."

My question is, are there any criteria a dietary supplement must meet to use
the term, "natural"?

Thank you in advance,

Ken Bourque


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 17:21:20 1996
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	  13 Jun 1996 18:54:58 +0100
Date: 13 Jun 1996 18:31:00 +0100
From: detko@seefeld.franken.de (Detlev Kopp)
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Hi,

you wrote:
> Mr. Hyman,
>
> Contact me directly at elliott@natrol.com and I'll guide you to the
> correct sources for import into the U.K.
>
> Elliott Balbert
Does there exist any similiar way to import it Germany (for example via  
UK)?

Thx in advance
Detlev Kopp
## CrossPoint v3.11 R ##

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 13 18:17:46 1996
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Subject: melatonin studies
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Does anyone know of published melatonin studies that have been done on 
geriatric patients with dementia or alzheimers.  If you do please let me 
know the journal and the title please.  
Thanks
Anthony Wright
longun45@ezin.net


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 09:26:47 1996
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Not only do they put those ingredients in, they also rip people off by
selling bogus "DHEA" which is really wild Mexican yam extract, and has
not been shown to increase DHEA levels. Their "DHEA" product also
contains "orchic"--cattle testicles.

This company really bothers me for many reasons. I took their DHEA
pill once because it was falsely promoted as real DHEA by a rep. I
met, and only later found out that it contained cattle balls. Being a
vegetarian, this upset me quite a bit. Also, you can't do a search for
melatonin or DHEA on many of the search engines without coming up with
hundreds of Life Plus web ads. It's annoying as hell. Someone
mentioned to me that there are "tricks" to getting your page to come
up first in many of the search engines, and apparently they're taking
advantage of those to spam the search engines. (Thankfully, you can
usually type "melatonin NOT (Life Plus)" in the search form and
eliminate the scads of LP ads).

IMHO, anyone who ingests cattle parts, esp. brain tissue, is taking a
huge gamble with their well-being. Caveat emptor.

Mike
>>> Kenneth L Bourque
Here's a "worst of all worlds" formulation.  But are they really
saying they have brain, hypothalamus, and pituitary tissue in their
product?<<<



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 11:43:28 1996
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Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:26:44 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Reply to Dr. Kennaway & Dan Kralis
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Dr. Kennaway,

I appreciate your candid response and your concern. However, I have a
few comments.

>>In Australia advertisements for vitamins always stress that the
should be taken only when the dietary intake of the vitamins is
inadequate!<<

Who among us eats the 5 servings of fruits and vegetables per day?
I'd guess not very many. Who has the time/money to get their levels
of various vitamins/minerals tested? Not very many. I take vitamins
not only as a safety measure, to make up for something I might be
missing from eating processed foods (even though I eat a vegetarian
diet), I also take them to *optimize* my health. There are many
studies that show the benefits of vitamins supplementation, and some
that don't. I follow the research and base my intake accordingly. So
I guess I take vitamins as a drug. Great! My recent physical showed
that I'm certainly not harming myself, and my doctor was impressed
with my blood pressure, cholesterol, and other results.

>>>I have also been intrigued by the postings mentioning the various
formulations of melatonin, ie slow release colloidal etc.  As
consumers you should be asking for evidence from the health drug
companies that the melatonin in the blood does in fact stay elevated
for prolonged periods as claimed. There have been no studies reported
in the scientific literature on the various formulations promoted by
the melatonin suppliers.<<<

You probably noticed that several people on this list have been
equally skeptical about such claims, and have questioned those making
the claims. So we're not all a bunch of sheep blindly swallowing every
assertion about a product.

>>>Just a thought for you to ponder: You have no doubt read in the
books on melatonin and on the internet that melatonin production and
secretion decreases with age.  What has in fact been studied are the
levels of melatonin in many people of different ages.  There have
been no studies showing that the production of melatonin decreased
with age in individuals.<<<

Interesting. I find it hard to believe that this "fact" has been
asserted so many times, in books by researchers like Pierpaoli &
Regelson et. al., without *any* scientific references. You can be
sure I'll look into this further. In the meantime, does anyone have
any references to support/refute this claim?

>>>An interesting sidelight to this anti aging research is that the
mice that Pierpaolli and Regelson used in their pineal transplant
experiments and are a key to the whole hypothesis DO NOT MAKE
MELATONIN.  The most commonly used laboratory mice strains have
mutations in the genes responsible for the production of enzymes
making melatonin!<<<

This is puzzling. I recall reading in their book that they removed
the pineal glands of mice, which stopped the production of melatonin
and caused the "accelerated" aging, while other mice that were given
supplemental melatonin showed more vigorous "youthful" appearance &
behavior. Are you sure ALL their experiments used the "common"
strains that don't produce melatonin? I'll go back and re-read their
books and check Medline, but this doesn't correspond with what I
remember reading about their experiments.

>>>I continually read on the news group, comments about natural and
synthetic melatonin and how synthetic is the best and safest.  It
probably is.  Much more to the point though is that there is so
little melatonin in the pineal glands of cows and sheep that to
extract enough melatonin for a single 3 mg tablet would require
approximately 30,000 cow pineals!!!  Enough said!  Those companies
saying they use melatonin from natural sources are lying and if they
use any animal extracts at all are criminally dangerous.<<<

I agree 100%. This kind of fraudulent promotion is offensive and
dangerous. However, the so-called "natural" melatonin is extremely
rare. I have yet to see the product at any of the retail stores I
frequent.

>>>Finally, melatonin is an fascinating HORMONE, but one which we are
only just beginning to understand.  It probably isn't dangerous to
take large amounts of it as a drug, but no-one really knows as there
have been no controlled studies on people taking it for prolonged
periods.<<<

Quite true. However, many of the participants of this list, who take
melatonin voluntarily and in an informed manner, will be the first
ones who show any adverse long-term effects, if they exist. So rather
than berating them as un- or mis-informed, they should be encouraged
to monitor their health and keep others informed. That is how
scientific hypotheses emerge, am I not correct? By gathering
anecdotal information? Although we are not a "controlled" study, the
information we provide will be valuable.

>>>Those people who are taking melatonin to see what happens and even
those who are taking it to help with their sleep are playing Russian
Roulette.<<<

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Has there been ANY
indication that melatonin is as dangerous as pointing a gun at one's
head with a bullet in the chamber? Has a single dangerous side effect
yet materialized? Have the studies of melatonin birth control pills,
using 75 mg or more, shown any deleterious effects? 
 
>>>They should lobby the health drug companies to SUPPORT MELATONIN
RESEARCH rather than take the money and run as they do at the
moment.<<<

I agree that the health/drug companies should support research.
However, the supplement companies are in business to make money--can
you blame them for selling a popular product that people want? It's
up to the researchers to do what the people are asking--do more
melatonin research! Which, I suspect, they are doing, and we all
eagerly await their findings from placebo controlled, randomized,
double-blind studies.

>>>Dan Kralis then writes:
Thank you Dr. Kennaway. After reading letter after letter (over 500
in all) of pseudo-scientific dribble and speculation, I was just
about to
"unsubscribe" from this group. <<<

Well instead of being insulting, why didn't you cease your lurking
and interject a comment here or there? I, for one, appreciate a good
debate and encourage those with opposing ideas to air them. What good
does it do us misinformed masses if people like yourself just
unsubscribe and don't let us know when we're going astray?

I would like to see more comments by researchers like Kennaway as an
antidote to some of the psuedoscience on this list. What good does it
do anyone if people like yourself just chuckle with amusement at our
folly and then unsubscribe, leaving us in the dark?

Dan Kralis M.M.Sci. 73540.1466@compuserve.com



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 12:46:58 1996
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The statement about "Russian Roulette is certainly very strong, and I, too,
would like to see some facts to back it up.

Bjorn

At 10:26 AM 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>>>Those people who are taking melatonin to see what happens and even
>those who are taking it to help with their sleep are playing Russian
>Roulette.<<<
>
>I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Has there been ANY
>indication that melatonin is as dangerous as pointing a gun at one's
>head with a bullet in the chamber? Has a single dangerous side effect
>yet materialized? Have the studies of melatonin birth control pills,
>using 75 mg or more, shown any deleterious effects? 

Good point below:

>I would like to see more comments by researchers like Kennaway as an
>antidote to some of the psuedoscience on this list. What good does it
>do anyone if people like yourself just chuckle with amusement at our
>folly and then unsubscribe, leaving us in the dark?
>
roxendal@alpinet.net


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 12:51:14 1996
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Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:38:07 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Reply to Dr. Kennaway & Dan Kralis -Reply
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I left Dan Kralis' signature at the bottom of my reply to him, which
might have confused some who read it. Just to avoid any confusion, I
wanted to state that I, Mike Hughes, posted the message "Reply to Dr.
Kennaway & Dan Kralis."

Sorry.

Mike Hughes


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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 14:27:11 1996
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From: Tario@mcn.net
Subject: A question for the physiologists...
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Fri, Jun 14, 1996
12:17:11 PM

Somewhere there is a discrepancy! If melatonin, administered as a
supplement, has a life in the body of some 2 hours then how would you
explain the fact that if I take a sublingual 1 mg tablet at 9 pm I can
STILL very much appreciate it's noticable effects on me until something
like 4 a.m., seven hours later? Being a victim of BPH and having to get up
with some frequency during the night, I can barely pry open my eyelids up
until at least 3 a.m.! Do the studies that determined the "2-hour" life of
melatonin have relevance to human physiology? Something is clearly
different for me for at least 7 hours after taking melatonin, and I don't
think liver failure is a valid answer!

Bob Hosley



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 14 21:10:10 1996
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From: VNTM10A@prodigy.com (MR ELLIOTT   BALBERT)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 21:08:40, -0500
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Dear Detlev,

It is my understanding that although Melatonin is not available for 
general sale most countries seem to have product imported in, one way 
or another. I suggest you contact a local health food store and ask 
them for their assistance in acquiring it. I'll bet they have found 
sources. If this proves fruitless, contact me directly at 
elliott@natrol.com

E.Balbert

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun 15 14:35:22 1996
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Subject: Re: Melatonin in Europe
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Dear Mr. Balbert

This is in response to your recent well-meaning comments to European 
participants of this forum offering mail order services and suggesting 
approaching health food stores.

For your info it is now extremely illegal in all EU countries for melatonin 
to be sold by any healthfood retailer to anyone. By law punishable by fines 
and prison, though the former is not yet enforced and the latter is unlikely.

The only exception is certain generic European-made melatonin made by 
certain European pharmaceutical companies, supplied by a pharmacist acting 
on a prescription from a qualified neuro-specialist working on serious sleep 
disorders which do not respond to other treatments. Even normal doctors are 
strongly advised not to prescribe melatonin until the EU drug registration 
tests are completed, which will take another year. 

Being a concentrated synthetic brain hormone melatonin is currently just as 
illegal as any unregistered pharmaceutical drug. In no way may you suggest 
that it is a food supplement in Europe. Even my country Holland - where most 
drugs are freely available - now enforces EU laws on this matter. And 
melatonin sold in small quantities is illegal whereas marijuana is not.
The only other way to obtain melatonin now is by mail order from US 
companies. An opportunity for your company Natrol and others, but you will 
have total Product Liability in Europe if you ship yourselves and melatonin 
turns out later to have side effects, just as you also will be stateside.

These words are not meant as criticism in any way, simply factual 
information on which you - and others - can choose to act.

Sincerely,

drs. David Gorbach



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sat Jun 15 15:19:58 1996
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From: Bjorn Roxendal <roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net>
Subject: Re: A question for the physiologists...
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At 12:26 PM 6/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Fri, Jun 14, 1996
>12:17:11 PM
>
>Somewhere there is a discrepancy! If melatonin, administered as a
>supplement, has a life in the body of some 2 hours then how would you
>explain the fact that if I take a sublingual 1 mg tablet at 9 pm I can
>STILL very much appreciate it's noticable effects on me until something
>like 4 a.m., seven hours later? 

I definitely feel the effects the morning after, sometimes till afternoon,
if I take a 3mg tablet at night. I have been wondering about this, too.

Bjorn

roxendal@alpinet.net


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun 16 22:46:23 1996
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:02 -0600 (CST)
From: dkennaway@medicine.adelaide.edu.au
Subject: Reply to Michael Hughes
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 Michael
 Thank you for your response to my posting.  I don't think I even hinted that  
 people on this group "were all a bunch of sheep blindly swallowing every 
 assertion about a product".  What I am prepared to say is that the information 
 being made available to the public is selective and often presented in a 
 misleading manner.  Some information is being presented by people with a vested 
 interest, be that of selling books or selling melatonin.
 
 I will pick up on the points that you highlighted.  The various suppliers of 
 melatonin formulations suggest that they have slow release, fast release 
 preparations etc.  There are a number of research groups and drug companies 
 throughout the world who have been trying for many years to deliver melatonin 
 in a sustained fashion without success.  No one to my knowledge has done it yet 
 or at least published it.  I doubt that the vitamin companies have achieved it 
 either.  If they have I would appreciate it if they would contact me because it 
 will save my research group a lot of time and money.
 
 Melatonin decreases with age.  As I said the research overs the years has shown 
 in population studies that old people tend to have lower levels of melatonin 
 than younger people.  There are a lot of young people who have considerably 
 lower levels of melatonin than people in their 80s.  It has been known for a 
 very long time that there is enormous variability between individuals and yet 
 they seem to be quite healthy.  There have been no studies on individuals over 
 a prolonged period.  Consider why.  It has been possible to measure melatonin 
 in body fluids only since 1975.  Many of the early assays were unreliable and 
 gave false high values.  Even now there are often discrepancies between 
 laboratories of over 10-20 fold in what is present in blood during the day!  
 Consider that there are very few labs around the world who (1) work on 
 melatonin (2) work on human melatonin, (3) have the technical ability and 
 resources to measure melatonin, (4) an interest in aging and most importantly 
 (5) funding that would allow a study to continue for 20-30 years with the real 
 prospect that there would be no difference in the end!  No!  Sorry it has not 
 been done!  Why is it written in books to read like it has been done?  Well it 
 suits the arguments of the authors to write it.  Any one can write a book; the 
 editor does not question the authors statements (or the basis for those 
 statements, see my next post).  But to publish a scientific paper requires the 
 scientific review of peers who work in the field and can stop in correct 
 statements being published.
 
 People on this list might like to visit your local library and/or obtain a copy 
 of the article written by Dr. Fred Turek in Nature Vol 379 pages 295-296 (1996) 
 on melatonin. 
 
 About the mice who don't make melatonin.  Sorry that is true, the mice 
 Pierpaoli used don't.  And it is not just me that is saying it.  Let me quote 
 from a Minireview written by Dr. Steven Reppert in the journal called Cell vol 
 83 pages 1059-1062 (1995).  He is a highly respected American pineal researcher 
 who is credited with one of the most exciting advances in our field for many 
 years, that of cloning the melatonin receptor.  He wrote "A centerpiece of the 
 so-called melatonin miracle sensationalised in a recent pop science book is the 
 claim that the hormone can reverse aging (Pierpaoli and Regelson).  This 
 assertion is scientifically unfounded and is based on the results of a 
 seriously flawed study performed in mice (Pierpaoli and Regelson 1994).  All 
 the murine strains used in that study (BALB/c, C57BL/6 and NZB) have a well 
 described genetic defect in pineal melatonin biosynthesis and cannot make 
 melatonin.  Thus any assertion that youthful pineal glands transplanted into 
 old mice keep young mice from aging due to restoration of "youthful" melatonin 
 levels is absurd.  When these melatonin deficient strains of mice were treated 
 with pharmacological doses of melatonin there was a 20% increase in life span 
 in female NXB and BALB/c mice but not in female C57BL/6 mice.  However these 
 authors sowed in another study(that is generally overlooked) that when 
 comparable amounts of melatonin are given to a mouse strain (C3H/He) that makes 
 melatonin, the treatment actually shortened survival by introducing reprod
 uctive tract tumours (referenced by Pierpaoli and Regelson 1994)".
 
 Long term effects.  I am not sure that every one taking melatonin would share 
 your desire to be a guinea pig and monitor their health.  The companies selling 
 the hormone over the counter are saying it is safe.  And while we would like to 
 think that this list is popular we don't have every melatonin user reading our 
 posts!  Lets face it I don't for one minute think that people are going to 
 become sick in the conventional sense.  But remember that melatonin has unusual 
 properties in that it can alter the timing of events in our bodies.  The 
 synchrony of these events is very important for our well being.  We just don't 
 know what will happen when we tamper with our timing systems (depressive 
 illness is one distinct possibility though).  I don't think Russian 
 Roulette is a bad analogy.  Unfortunately you linked it with a loaded gun.  
 What I suggest is that people are holding a gun to their head and don't know 
 WHAT is in the chamber; is it good or is it bad and will it affect me and not 
 some one else.
 
 Health drug companies and research.  "can you blame them for selling a popular 
 product that people want?" Of course they are in the business to make money and 
 they are making lots of it on melatonin and they are making it on the basis of 
 a lot of publicly funded research.  It is not unreasonable to expect them to 
 support further research; the major drug companies support a lot of basic 
 research in universities too.  But what sort of research would they be willing 
 to support I wonder?  Perhaps Mr Balbert may have some anwsers to this 
 question.  It may well just suit them to do nothing and keep taking the money 
 just in case.
 
 Finally I would like to address your response to Dan Krallis.  I found your 
 comments to him extremely offensive.  It does nothing for the debate to attack 
 people.  If you ever have the opportunity to meet him face to face then express 
 your opinions of him to his face.  Australians have a reputation for calling a 
 spade a spade but we also have manners.
 
 Dave Kennaway

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun 16 23:00:52 1996
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:17 -0600 (CST)
From: dkennaway@medicine.adelaide.edu.au
Subject: Re: A new book!
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 In a previous posting I raised a number of points relating to melatonin as a 
 dietary supplement and as a drug  Those of you who read it will have got the 
 impression that I feel uncomfortable about the way that melatonin is being 
 promoted.  One of the biggest dangers is that the hype may well compromise the 
 efforts of many scientists around the world who are endeavouring to understand 
 the function of the melatonin that we make each night.
 
 At this stage I should point out that I have nothing to gain financially from 
 my current position apart from the desire to maintain the funding of my 
 research by my National funding agencies in my quest to understand the role of 
 the biological clock and the pineal gland.  I do not hold patents or receive 
 royalties for the manufacture, sale and/or use of melatonin and I am not in the 
 process of writing a book about melatonin!
 
 What I want to do in this and possibly follow up posts is to alert those of you 
 who may have bought and/or read the books on melatonin and the magazine digests 
 of them of the glaring inaccuracies and failures of logic in many of the 
 statements.
 
 I will start with one of the most recent which I was alerted to by someone in 
 this group.  It is a book called stoping the clock by Ronald Klatz and Robert 
 Goldman.  A sample chapter (chapter 3) is available at 
 http://www.worldhealth.net/member/a4m/melatoni.html.
 
 The very first sentence in the preamble states that "melatonin is a hormone 
 secreted by the brain's pineal gland, a SMALL GLAND BEHIND THE EYES that 
 COORDINATES SEASONAL CHANGES in the body and helps to PROMOTE SEXUAL MATURITY 
 IN ADOLESCENTS" emphasis is mine.
 Lets look at the three phrases
 (1) It is not a good start to establish scientific credibility!  The pineal 
 gland is a very long way behind the eyes, being essentially in the centre of 
 the human brain.  It is connected to the retina via an intricate nerve pathway 
 that involves the optic nerves, a part of the brain called the suprachiasmatic 
 nucleus which IS the site of our biological clock, a ganglion in our neck and 
 another nerve back to the pineal gland.  The pineal gland is not a clock.
 (2) The pineal gland, through melatonin is indeed a crucial link between the 
 external environment and the rest of the body and mediates many of the seasonal 
 changes in fur cover, body weight and reproduction in wild animals.  There are 
 some minor seasonal changes that occur in our bodies, but they may not be 
 essential to our well being.  You must consider the question "If I take large 
 amounts of melatonin will it interfere in any way with my normal seasonal 
 rhythms the way it can in animals?"
 (3) Melatonin does affect sexual maturation in animals.  When administered to 
 laboratory rodents appropriately timed melatonin administration will delay the 
 onset of puberty.  The animals used (hamsters, mice and rats) are the same 
 species which are being used to provide data on the anti aging, cholesterol 
 lowering, free radical scavenging effects of melatonin.  In humans melatonin 
 levels in blood are indeed highest around the time of puberty and many 
 scientists have suggested that it is the FALL in the melatonin levels as body 
 size inevitably increases that permits sexual activity to commence.  Thus low 
 melatonin in humans is compatible with normal sexual function.  Thus those 
 people taking melatonin must make the following decision; The information about 
 the reproductive effects of melatonin in animals is not relevant to humans, but 
 the "desirable" findings are.  Remember that most of the claims except perhaps 
 those relating to sleep are unashamedly based on animal studies.
 
 Moving ahead slightly at this point, but still on the issue of reproduction and 
 sex,  Dr. Michael Cohen (mentioned later in the chapter) is trialing a 
 melatonin/progestogen contraceptive Pill which is based upon the ability of 
 high doses of melatonin to shut down female reproductive activity.  Is this 
 necessarily compatible with "enjoying sex' and being "sexually rejuvenated"?
 
 Lets move onto the next page.
 "Some researchers are strongly convinced that melatonin may even represent a 
 remedy against aging itself."  
 
 I touched on this in my earlier posting, but here I will be a bit more 
 specific.  In a "key" experiment mentioned here and in their own book as well 
 as others, Pierpaoli implanted the pineal glands of young mice into old mice 
 and the aging mice regained much of their "youthful vigor and maintained 
 excellent health all through their maximum life span."  If you read the book 
 chapter by Klatz and Goldman they stated that the transplant was into the 
 BRAINS of old mice.  Sorry, if the authors had read the paper carefully they 
 would have seen that the pineals were transplanted into the thymus not the 
 brain.  This on its own poses some dilemmas because this means that the pineal 
 was now completely removed from any of its nerve connections with the 
 biological clock (see above) and no mammalian pineal gland can sustain rhythms 
 under these circumstances.  They did however report that there was evidence of 
 pineal tissue in the transplantation site when the animals finally died so the 
 pineal might have some cells alive and possibly making a hormone.  If it was 
 making a hormone though it was not melatonin because the commonly used 
 laboratory mice do not make melatonin!  In the process of selecting mice for 
 experiments over the decades, strains have emerged with mutations in 2 key 
 enzymes that are responsible for making melatonin.  Pierpaolli did not measure 
 melatonin in his animals.
 
 Lets accept the results on face value though.  The animals lived longer after 
 the transplant, but we can be sure in this case it was not melatonin causing 
 it.  "Studies conducted by Dr. Walter Pierpaoli and various colleagues have 
 shown that MELATONIN TREATMENTS EXTENDED the life span of mice by as much as 25 
 percent."  Given that they don't make melatonin normally at all, is it not 
 possible that the mice they were using always died PREMATURELY because they 
 never had any melatonin rather than because it decreased with age?  What would 
 happen if they treated mice that could make melatonin; they died at a younger 
 age (see previuos post)?  
 
 "Studies have shown that melatonin may help to prevent heart disease by 
 lowering blood cholesterol in people with high cholesterol. (Interestingly, 
 melatonin seems to have no effect on the cholesterol levels of those with 
 normal cholesterol.)"
 Now this is not a research area that I am very familiar with so I decided to do 
 a Medline search to see exactly what has been published in the scientific 
 literature.  I found 14 articles.  I am sorry if this bit is too complicated.  
 There have been no studies in humans on the ability of melatonin to lower blood 
 cholesterol.  In rat experiments in 1976 and 1978 E. Damian showed that whilst 
 pineal extracts (free of melatonin) lowered serum adrenal and testicular 
 cholesterol in rats, administration of melatonin did not cause alterations.  
 Similar effects were seen in rabbits.  Decreasing adrenal and testicular 
 cholesterol is not a good thing!   N. Mori (1989) treated rats with 4 mg 
 melatonin daily (equivalent to more than 600 mg for a human) while they were 
 being fed a diet consisting of 1% cholesterol (!) and blunted the effects of 
 the diet on plasma lipids and lipoproteins.  Melatonin had no effect in rats on 
 a normal diet.  R. Sandyk 1994 studied the relationship between melatonin 
 secretion and serum cholesterol in patients with Multiple Sclerosis.  
 Cholesterol levels were reported to be significantly higher in 10 patients who 
 had low melatonin levels at night compared to 14 in whom the melatonin levels 
 were "normal."  I have not been able to get hold of the paper (this journal is 
 not widely distributed and I suspect Dr Sandyk is the Editor as almost all of 
 his papers are published in it!) to see if they report melatonin and 
 cholesterol levels to be significantly correlated (the way the data are 
 represented in the abstract can be very misleading because it depends on what 
 is defined as normal).  There was no mention of results in non MS patients or 
 subjects.  D. Muller-Wieland 1994 looked at melatonin effects on cholesterol 
 synthesis by leucocytes (blood cells).  They showed melatonin could inhibit the 
 synthesis but at doses 1 million times those appearing in human blood. at night 
 and higher than those likely to be achieved with a melatonin pill.  I concede 
 that I don' know the relevance of this model to heart disease.   TY Chan 1995 
 studied the effect of melatonin on cholesterol metabolism in the rat in dietary 
 (induced by 1% cholesterol in the food) and hypothyroid (treatment with the 
 thyrotoxic drug 2-thiouracil) models of hypercholesterolemia.  Melatonin 
 treatment 12.5 mg/kg (ie human equivalent more than 750 mg) reduced serum 
 cholesterol and total low density lipoprotein.  Thats about it unless you add 
 the studies on hamsters that show that melatonin actually increases cholesterol 
 (!); but that would be mischievous as hamsters undergo massive metabolic swings 
 as part of their seasonality. 
 
 Don't get me wrong about the research mentioned above.  I have no reason to 
 question the way any of the experiments were conducted or the conclusions they 
 drew from them about their models; it is others who are taking them out of the 
 context they were done in and are making outrageous statements.  
 
 My summary of this work is that it is plain stupid to be making the sort of 
 statements that are appearing in the books!!
 
 I could go on about most of the other topics, but I wont.  I hope that you can 
 understand why people like myself are becoming so pissed off.  Sorry also if I 
 have overloaded your postboxes :-)
 
 I am going to be away from my email for the next 10 days so if anyone has 
 replies etc my failure to respond will not be from pique.
 
 Dave Kennaway

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 01:04:32 1996
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Remove

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toh Wei Meng, Luke
BH7209074@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg

Party on, dude!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 04:13:03 1996
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Date: 17 Jun 96 03:59:32 EDT
From: "Jeffrey Hyman (Egham)" <100102.2264@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Death Sentence in Europe
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Here in Britain it's not quite so grim a s David Gorbach paints.

I can get it from time to time, but not consistently.

I still don't know whether it's illegal or not and neither, it seems, do the
shops???

XX


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 05:50:30 1996
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 09:50:57 UT
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Remove

Dr. Robert B. Davidheiser, Sr.
Sunbeach@msn.com

Thanks 


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 10:00:35 1996
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From: "Rudolf K. Huebscher" <huebscher@fivenet.ch>
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Subject: Banned in Europe?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:49:01 +-200
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Jeffrey Hyman wrote:
>>>I still don't know whether it's illegal or not<<<

In my opionion, it is not so much a question of whether melatonin is 
"banned" or "illegal" in Europe, but instead of melatonin's classification. 
 Often, when one says that melatonin is banned in a certain country he 
really means that it is classified as a prescription medicine (drug), not 
as a food or food supplement.

I am personally familiar with the situation in Germany and Switzerland, and 
can confirm the observations made by David Gorbach.

1.  Melatonin is classified as a drug, more precisely as a prescription 
medicine.  This means that only pharmacies are allowed to sell it, and only 
on a medical doctor's prescription.

2.  At the moment, no melatonin product has been registered yet with the 
competent health authorities.  This means that a pharmacy does not yet have 
the possibility to order, from a pharmaceutical wholesaler or directly from 
a pharmaceutical manufacturer, a melatonin product in the form of a 
finished product.  Therefore, for a pharmacy to be able to fill a doctor's 
prescription, the pharmacy buys the melatonin raw material -- or a 
concentrate or mixture -- from a supplier of pharmacueutical raw materials 
and the pharmacist then prepares the finished product, i.e. he fills 
capsules, presses tablets, or mixes a solution, depending on the 
prescription.  I have spoken to a pharmacist in Switzerland and learnt that 
in this country this procedure of "making up a prescription" is very rarely 
employed, occasionally for a dermatological cream or ointment.  It is more 
common in Germany, I understand, where it is finacially more rewarding for 
the pharmacy.  I know of one supplier of a liquid melatonin concentrate in 
Bavaria, and there may be others in Germany.

Unless and until a melatonin product, as a finished product -- locally 
produced or foreign, is registerd as medicine with the competent health 
authorities, its commercial sale is forbidden by law, except the making up 
of a prescription by a pharmacy as mentioned above.

This leaves the question of importation of melatonin products by individual 
persons for their personal use, in reasonable (small) quantities.  In 
Switzerland, an official of the Federal Health Office told me that this 
would be illegal.  I do not know the situation in this regard in Germany or 
other countries of the European Union.  To the best of my knowledge, in 
most countries, even where such indivual importation is illegal, the 
customs authorities close both eyes most of the time, or more likely they 
do not examine the contents of such parcels.  I know of at least one Swiss 
resident who had no problem receiving a small parcel containing melatonin 
good for about three months' use, sent to him from the USA, declared as 
"food supplements" (the legally corect declaration in the sender's country) 
and designated as a gift.

Rudolf


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 11:44:27 1996
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 11:41:23 -0500
From: dh <dhaley@oxford.net>
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I have been considering ordering sustained release melatonin from "Melatonin
Central"...has anyone had any experience with that particular kind of
melatonin?  Or experience with Melatonin Central?

I have also seen ads for something called Melatonex, which is described as
being a timed release variety.  Has anyone heard of it?

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 15:52:59 1996
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Remove

Thanks

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 17 19:34:29 1996
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remove

thank you

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 18 05:05:31 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 05:03:59 1996
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Hello: Last May I was lecturing in Buenos Aires. There I found that the 
melatonin is sold in pills at the pharmacies and they are produced by two 
local pharmaceutical companies, the name of one is ISA, which is a State
owned or controlled firm.
 
I do have the address of both companies because they are included in the box.
I remember the the price was 14 Pesos Argentinos (1Peso = 1 USDolar) per 60 
pills in one laboratory and 15 Pesos per 30 "time delayed" capsules from 
another laboratory with the signature and number of associate of the physician 
supervising the technical process supporting this product.
In both cases it is synthetical melatonin.

I used this hormone to deal with jet-lag effects and the results were 
quite good.

Jose M. Prieto,Complutense University of Madrid
Faculty of Psychology,Dpt.Individual Differences & Work Psych.
Somosaguas,Madrid,28223Spain,Fax 34-1-3510091,Phone 3943236 
Internet E-mail Address: psdif01@emducms1.sis.ucm.es


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 08:30:40 1996
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------14B725162A5C
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Bjorn Roxendal wrote:
> 
> At 12:26 PM 6/14/96 +0100, you wrote:
> >Fri, Jun 14, 1996
> >12:17:11 PM
> >
> >Somewhere there is a discrepancy! If melatonin, administered as a
> >supplement, has a life in the body of some 2 hours then how would you
> >explain the fact that if I take a sublingual 1 mg tablet at 9 pm I can
> >STILL very much appreciate it's noticable effects on me until something
> >like 4 a.m., seven hours later?
> 
> I definitely feel the effects the morning after, sometimes till afternoon,
> if I take a 3mg tablet at night. I have been wondering about this, too.
> 
> Bjorn
> 
> roxendal@alpinet.net

--------------14B725162A5C
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Bjorn:
Its in the math. If we take a simplistic model that all of the melatonin is absorbed rapidly at a
specified time and the half life is 2 hours without variation from individual to individual, then one-half of the initial dose is eliminated every 2 hours. So, if the initial dose is 1 mg., that's 1000
micrograms. If the necessary dose (measured in plasma concentration) to produce somnolence is
on the order of 20 to 40 micrograms per liter and there are about 4 to 5 liters of blood containing
about 3000 cc.'s of plasma, then it would take about 4 half times for the plasma level from the
ingested dose to drop below 40 micrograms. That is about 4 half lives of 2 hrs. each or 8 hours.
But, don't forget that the pineal is producing additional melatonin, so it may take longer for the
total level to drop to normal daylight levels. Notice that I have ignored whether the drug was
taken on a full stomach, with other drugs, etc. which might influence absorption and elimination
and individual variation with respect to effective dose effect thresholds.

Perhaps our Australian friend could educate us on possible feedback mechanisms that would alter
the natural melatonin production in response to ingested melatonin? Is serotonin release or
production change with ingested melatonin? 

Dan Kralis
73540.1466@compuserve.com


--------------14B725162A5C--


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 08:51:47 1996
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From: D Kralis <dkralis@cris.com>
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dkennaway@medicine.adelaide.edu.au wrote:
> 
> 
>  Michael
>  Thank you for your response to my posting.  I don't think I even hinted that
>  people on this group "were all a bunch of sheep blindly swallowing every
>  assertion about a product".  What I am prepared to say is that the information
>  being made available to the public is selective and often presented in a
>  misleading manner.  Some information is being presented by people with a vested
>  interest, be that of selling books or selling melatonin.
> 
>  I will pick up on the points that you highlighted.  The various suppliers of
>  melatonin formulations suggest that they have slow release, fast release
>  preparations etc.  There are a number of research groups and drug companies
>  throughout the world who have been trying for many years to deliver melatonin
>  in a sustained fashion without success.  No one to my knowledge has done it yet
>  or at least published it.  I doubt that the vitamin companies have achieved it
>  either.  If they have I would appreciate it if they would contact me because it
>  will save my research group a lot of time and money.
> 
>  Melatonin decreases with age.  As I said the research overs the years has shown
>  in population studies that old people tend to have lower levels of melatonin
>  than younger people.  There are a lot of young people who have considerably
>  lower levels of melatonin than people in their 80s.  It has been known for a
>  very long time that there is enormous variability between individuals and yet
>  they seem to be quite healthy.  There have been no studies on individuals over
>  a prolonged period.  Consider why.  It has been possible to measure melatonin
>  in body fluids only since 1975.  Many of the early assays were unreliable and
>  gave false high values.  Even now there are often discrepancies between
>  laboratories of over 10-20 fold in what is present in blood during the day!
>  Consider that there are very few labs around the world who (1) work on
>  melatonin (2) work on human melatonin, (3) have the technical ability and
>  resources to measure melatonin, (4) an interest in aging and most importantly
>  (5) funding that would allow a study to continue for 20-30 years with the real
>  prospect that there would be no difference in the end!  No!  Sorry it has not
>  been done!  Why is it written in books to read like it has been done?  Well it
>  suits the arguments of the authors to write it.  Any one can write a book; the
>  editor does not question the authors statements (or the basis for those
>  statements, see my next post).  But to publish a scientific paper requires the
>  scientific review of peers who work in the field and can stop in correct
>  statements being published.
> 
>  People on this list might like to visit your local library and/or obtain a copy
>  of the article written by Dr. Fred Turek in Nature Vol 379 pages 295-296 (1996)
>  on melatonin.
> 
>  About the mice who don't make melatonin.  Sorry that is true, the mice
>  Pierpaoli used don't.  And it is not just me that is saying it.  Let me quote
>  from a Minireview written by Dr. Steven Reppert in the journal called Cell vol
>  83 pages 1059-1062 (1995).  He is a highly respected American pineal researcher
>  who is credited with one of the most exciting advances in our field for many
>  years, that of cloning the melatonin receptor.  He wrote "A centerpiece of the
>  so-called melatonin miracle sensationalised in a recent pop science book is the
>  claim that the hormone can reverse aging (Pierpaoli and Regelson).  This
>  assertion is scientifically unfounded and is based on the results of a
>  seriously flawed study performed in mice (Pierpaoli and Regelson 1994).  All
>  the murine strains used in that study (BALB/c, C57BL/6 and NZB) have a well
>  described genetic defect in pineal melatonin biosynthesis and cannot make
>  melatonin.  Thus any assertion that youthful pineal glands transplanted into
>  old mice keep young mice from aging due to restoration of "youthful" melatonin
>  levels is absurd.  When these melatonin deficient strains of mice were treated
>  with pharmacological doses of melatonin there was a 20% increase in life span
>  in female NXB and BALB/c mice but not in female C57BL/6 mice.  However these
>  authors sowed in another study(that is generally overlooked) that when
>  comparable amounts of melatonin are given to a mouse strain (C3H/He) that makes
>  melatonin, the treatment actually shortened survival by introducing reprod
>  uctive tract tumours (referenced by Pierpaoli and Regelson 1994)".
> 
>  Long term effects.  I am not sure that every one taking melatonin would share
>  your desire to be a guinea pig and monitor their health.  The companies selling
>  the hormone over the counter are saying it is safe.  And while we would like to
>  think that this list is popular we don't have every melatonin user reading our
>  posts!  Lets face it I don't for one minute think that people are going to
>  become sick in the conventional sense.  But remember that melatonin has unusual
>  properties in that it can alter the timing of events in our bodies.  The
>  synchrony of these events is very important for our well being.  We just don't
>  know what will happen when we tamper with our timing systems (depressive
>  illness is one distinct possibility though).  I don't think Russian
>  Roulette is a bad analogy.  Unfortunately you linked it with a loaded gun.
>  What I suggest is that people are holding a gun to their head and don't know
>  WHAT is in the chamber; is it good or is it bad and will it affect me and not
>  some one else.
> 
>  Health drug companies and research.  "can you blame them for selling a popular
>  product that people want?" Of course they are in the business to make money and
>  they are making lots of it on melatonin and they are making it on the basis of
>  a lot of publicly funded research.  It is not unreasonable to expect them to
>  support further research; the major drug companies support a lot of basic
>  research in universities too.  But what sort of research would they be willing
>  to support I wonder?  Perhaps Mr Balbert may have some anwsers to this
>  question.  It may well just suit them to do nothing and keep taking the money
>  just in case.
> 
>  Finally I would like to address your response to Dan Krallis.  I found your
>  comments to him extremely offensive.  It does nothing for the debate to attack
>  people.  If you ever have the opportunity to meet him face to face then express
>  your opinions of him to his face.  Australians have a reputation for calling a
>  spade a spade but we also have manners.
> 
>  Dave KennawayThank you once again for your informative and will considered comments. I chose
not to directly defend myself since I believe that people of science will (or should) see
beyond the hysteria to the truth of the matter. And, as I joined this group to gather information
rather than teach, I have been reluctant to respond to some of the comments. This group seems
to be a "mixed bag" of lay and professional people. One must find common ground upon which to 
conduct a meaningful discussion.

Thank you,
Dan Kralis
73540.1466@compuserve.com

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 10:29:37 1996
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Wed, Jun 19, 1996
8:21:51 AM

If I interpret Dan Kralis' good comments correctly about the half-life of
melatonin, it occurs to me that there should, in effect, be no need for a
slow-release tablet but a great need for taking the correct dosage, likely
a variable from person to person.

As I said earlier, I did have trouble with dosage until I hit upon the
correct one for me, 1 mg sublingual, not slow release. This, in effect,
lasts the 7 or so hours of good sleep that I require and does not leave me
groggy the following morning.

Bob Hosley



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 10:51:02 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:49:35 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
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Dave Kennaway wrote:

>>>Finally I would like to address your response to Dan Krallis.  I
found your comments to him extremely offensive.  It does nothing for
the debate to attack people.  If you ever have the opportunity to
meet him face to face then express your opinions of him to his face. 
Australians have a reputation for calling a spade a spade but we also
have manners.<<<

Maybe I'm just a typically ignorant, obnoxious American, but I don't
think anything I said was "extremely offensive." Could you specify
what I said that was so offensive? All I said was that I found Dan
Krallis' comments very condescending, and suggested he share some of
his thoughts rather than lurking and essentially dismissing the
participants of this mailing list as uninformed. Why is this so
horribly offensive to your Australian sensibilities?

Dan Krallis writes:

>>>Dave KennawayThank you once again for your informative and will
considered comments. I chose not to directly defend myself since I
believe that people of science will (or should) see beyond the
hysteria to the truth of the matter.<<<

I didn't mean to "attack" you, Dan. I just made a suggestion that you
contribute rather than just deride the members of this list, many of
whom are intelligent, curious, and well-spoken people. Maybe they are
not "people of science" such as yourself, but they're not all
believers of melatonin "hysteria." 

Thankfully, Dave Kennaway has posted some very interesting material
shedding light on Pierpaoli & Regelson's work that the longevity
claims for melatonin are based upon, and other aspects of melatonin
usage that should serve as cautionary. I applaud him for this, as
this list has needed the voice of those "in the trenches" of
melatonin research to counteract those who simply regurgitate the
popular theories. Thank you, Dave. I, for one, am very appreciative
of your detailed reply.

>>>And, as I joined this group to gather information rather than
teach, I have been reluctant to respond to some of the comments. This
group seems to be a "mixed bag" of lay and professional people. One
must find common ground upon which to  conduct a meaningful
discussion.<<<

This group is indeed a "mixed bag" and I think that's a good thing.
For the scientific "professional" people like yourself, you can get
an idea of to what extent the public is informed or misinformed about
melatonin research/usage. For the lay public, we can get the most
accurate and up-to-date information from the scientific researchers.
I think it's rather easy to find common ground among the members of
this mailing list, without deriding anyone's intelligence or ruffling
any feathers in the process.

Mike Hughes



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 13:03:17 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 12:59:15 EDT
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>From kirwan@mailbox.neosoft.com  Wed Jun 19 12:58:59 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:02:57 -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: john kirwan <kirwan@mailbox.neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Reply to Kennaway & Krallis
Cc: melatonin@ai.mit.edu

I reply without quoting the three incomings, to save bandwith,  we are all
generally familiary with their thrust.

I am "a layman".    I found the messages of David Kennaway, Dan Krallis, and
Michael Hughes EACH AND EVERY ONE very helpful, and I saved all of them,
although I essentially associate myself with the stance of Michael Hughes.
What I look to this forum for is AN EXAMINATION of the questions, their
civil discussion, and not any "one right answer".

my own present stance:

  1   I take as factual and reality essentially what David K. said.  I do
NOT accept the conclusions         at which he seems to have arrived.  The
following are not David K.'s words but my         understanding of "the
logical inferences" that I ascribe to them:

           there have been NO really defnitive studies of the "long term"
results of melatonin usage,              THEREFORE the "reasonable man" will
await such before using Melatonin.

           a   I am 75 years old.   I suspect a hgh percentage of  those
using melatonin are elderly.
                  Even if I were "only 60 again" --my concern with 'long
range studies" of a substance                   which SEEMS to be reasonably
safe for short/medium use would not be governing.

           b   Even so, I would NOT use melatonin even though I was not
"worried" about it, UNLESS I                   had a specific problem which
I had "reason to believe" it holds out significant hope of
dealing with, that is, merely to "enhance" the quality of a life already w/o
significant                      problems.

                HOWEVER, the "greater the hurt or harm" of a problem, the
"greater the risk or chance I                 am willing to take on
something that might help it."     Thus I will NOT take melatonin
to prevent aging for example, or fight free radicals, although it MIGHT work
on both                 items.                        

                But "getting a refreshing night's sleep" --MOST NIGHTS-- is
a high priority item with                 me, and definitely has "health
benefits".   

                I find this the "FDA fallacy".   Both by "law" to some
extent, and by breaucratic fear of                 criticism by "the media"
--the CYA syndrome-- I see the FDA as NOT CARING how                 much
"good" something might do, if it can do ANY harm, to ANYONE, it won't be
approved.   Better 10,000 die of lung cancer, than ONE MAN drop dead of the
drug that                 can cure lung cancer--- because the media will
criticize the FDA for THAT MAN.

        c       I don't really believe there have been convincing LONG TERM
studies on the effects of                  most substances we ingest except
food, --the all-out ones using "humans" with                 double-blind
conditions and half of them doomed to suffer the consequences.

                And  I do not really WANT such tests.  I am satisfied with
"reasonable tests" using                 animals or humans under limited
conditions, and I want to know the RESULTS of such                 tests.
But then I want to make up my own mind on "what I want to do with the
results".                 Adapting them to my own concrete circumstances.

I will say in closing (at last) that I found one point of David K.'s
particularly "sobering"--that when one "tinkers with" something as basic and
multi-fuctional as the pineal gland and the "body clock" --- there
automatically is a correspondingly greater need for CAUTION.

 john kirwan
                    
At 10:49 AM 6/19/96 -0400, Michael Hughes wrote:
>Dave Kennaway wrote:
>





---
Concurrent VLSI Arch. Group     545 Technology Sq., Rm. 610
MIT AI Lab                      Cambridge, MA 02139 (617)-253-0972

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 19 13:06:38 1996
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From: lethin@ai.mit.edu (Rich Lethin)
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I may have already mentioned that this past winter a filter was added
to the melatonin mailing list.  The filter only permits people who are
on the list to post.  This is to prevent problems with advertisements.

If your email address changes slightly, the filter might reject your
message even though you're on the list and getting message.  This
happened with the previous post, which I forwarded.  If you find that
your messages aren't getting through, you might consider checking how
your name appears on the mailing list (the help file explains how to
do this)  and whether this matches exactly the return address on your
mail messages.

Rich

---
Concurrent VLSI Arch. Group     545 Technology Sq., Rm. 610
MIT AI Lab                      Cambridge, MA 02139 (617)-253-0972

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 13:38:29 1996
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:40:29 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Bjorn Roxendal <roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net>
Subject: Effect of M on the eye
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The following research report indicates that M harms the eye. Comments?
What about the doses used? How do they compare to typical "human" doses?

Bjorn


Title
       Effect of long-term administration of melatonin on eyes and
       harderian glands in albino rat. 
Author
       Dhanaraj, Joshi BN
Address
       Department of Zoology, Gulbarga University, India. 
Source
       Indian J Exp Biol, 33: 9, 1995 Sep, 664-7
Abstract
       Pineal hormone melatonin is also synthesized by the ocular
structures, retina and Harderian
       gland. The physiological significance of such production is not fully
understood. Daily treatment
       with melatonin (25 micrograms/rat) for 8 weeks led to an increase in
weight of eye balls and fluid
       within it (P < 0.05). Weight of the Harderian gland in the control
and treated rats was not
       significantly different, though the histological observation revealed
an increase in cell height
       and reduction in lumen diameter in the treated animals. Inter luminal
deposits of porphyrin
       content appeared to be more in the Harderian glands of melatonin
treated rats. The retinal
       tissue indicated degenerative changes in the melatonin treated rats.
The results suggest
       melatonin's influence on level of ocular fluid, structure/function of
retina and harderian gland. 
Language of Publication
       English 
Unique Identifier
       96102903 
roxendal@alpinet.net


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 13:43:20 1996
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:42:40 GMT+1
From: POGGIOLINI@polito.it
Subject: on Dave Kennaway's remarks
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
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Hello,

I've been one of the quite listeners so far. I was really impressed
by Dave Kennaway's remarks and started wondering. Some of the things
he said did not sound completely right, as to my recollection of what
I'd read on melatonin. 

So I decided to double check with someone who certainly knows a lot
about it, since she is a co-author of one of the most famous books
on melatonin. It's
Jo Robinson, who, together with Russel J. Reiter, wrote the book
"MELATONIN: Your Body's Natural Wonder Drug".

I forwarded to her all three e-mail's from Dave Kennaway and here's 
her answer, which I find very balanced and enlightning.

Hope this can further spur a debate that's becoming very interesting.

Pierluigi Poggiolini

********************************************************


Pierluigi
	It may surprise you that I agree with most of the remarks being
made.  There are some exceptions worth noting, however. (I wish I had time
to list all the citations, etc. but I don.t)
	First of all, the widespread assertions that the mice in
Pierpaoli's experiments did not produce melatonin is false. Unfortunately,
the paper showing that they do in fact produce melatonin is in press, due
to be published in the Journal of Pineal Research.  These studies were
conducted by Georges Maestroni, a leading melatonin researcher. I have
the study in hand if anyone is interested.
	Another minor point, a very effective time-release melatonin
tablet has been produced, and a paper on the topic is available in the
literature. [INt. J. Pharmaceutics  1995.  Beom-Jim Lee.  Volume 4029]
	None of the three critics that you cited have done a thorough
search of the literature.  If they can't find the studies on their own, I
refer them to the Notes and Reference section of our book.  For example,
they will find three papers showing that melatonin lowers cholesterol in
rodents, plus a preliminary report from the Dutch contraceptive study
involving 1400 women that melatonin has lowered their cholesterol across
the board
	One cannot argue with the overall tone of these postings, in that
long-term studies on humans have not been done.  I believe we made that
amply clear in our book.  These people are weighing in on the
cautious/conservative side of the spectrum, which is good, in my opinion,
especially when irresponsible people like Pierpaoli and Regelson wrote so
many absurd statements about melatonin.
	Thanks for keeping me updated!
	Jo
+-----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
                       Jo Robinson    jor@teleport.com
 Co-author, with Russel J. Reiter- MELATONIN: Your Body's Natural Wonder Drug
          For a melatonin FAQ, go to: http://www.teleport.com/~jor
     (Note: I have no financial connection with any melatonin supplier.)
+-----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 14:27:58 1996
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_?= Mekelnburg <j.mekelnburg@elmshorn.netsurf.de>
Subject: Dosage and risks
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Hello,

can anybody tell me someting about dosage and  known risks of
taking melatonin ?
Further I bought some Melatonin with a pharmaceutical Grade of
99,8 %. Can I believe this ?

Thanks



Joerg und Petra Mekelnburg
E - Mail: j.mekelnburg@elmshorn.netsurf.de
Homepage : http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1682
                        http://elmshorn.netsurf.de/~j.mekelnburg
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J. Mekelnburg
Froebelstrasse 6
25337 Elmshorn
Germany
FAX and Phone :  +49-4121-78206


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 15:39:49 1996
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remove
-- 
http://www.con2.com/~tmcnulty



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 16:11:17 1996
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Thu, Jun 20, 1996
1:57:32 PM

It has been some years since I worked with albino laboratory rats (Wistar
strain) but I recall that adult rats weighed about 250 grams. Bjorn
Roxendal cites an Indian study in which rats were given 25 mcg/rat/day for
8 weeks that produced noticable, and we assume undesirable, side effects.
While we don't have the details, this would compare to a dose of about 6.8
mg/day for a 150 lb man, assuming that I have my arithmetic correct.
Unusually high doses are often used in animal testing of drugs for the
detection of carcinogenic propensity, but the side effects of such doses
may not be directly referable to man.

Bob Hosley



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 16:45:40 1996
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From: Evan L Petee <epetee@baldwinw.edu>
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please remove my name from the subscription list

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 20 17:30:32 1996
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:32:46 -0400
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: Bjorn Roxendal <roxendal@sunrise.alpinet.net>
Subject: Re: Melatonin and the eye: a note of caution.
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At 02:10 PM 6/20/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Thu, Jun 20, 1996
>1:57:32 PM
>
>It has been some years since I worked with albino laboratory rats (Wistar
>strain) but I recall that adult rats weighed about 250 grams. Bjorn
>Roxendal cites an Indian study in which rats were given 25 mcg/rat/day for
>8 weeks that produced noticable, and we assume undesirable, side effects.
>While we don't have the details, this would compare to a dose of about 6.8
>mg/day for a 150 lb man, assuming that I have my arithmetic correct.
>Unusually high doses are often used in animal testing of drugs for the
>detection of carcinogenic propensity, but the side effects of such doses
>may not be directly referable to man.
>

Thanks, Bob, for putting the calculator to this. 7mg per day is of the same
order as what many people are taking, so there is definitely concern about
negative side effects on the human eye, at this point. More comments welcome.

Bjorn

roxendal@alpinet.net


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 21 10:00:50 1996
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>please remove my name from the subscription list


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 24 13:23:39 1996
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Info



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Mon Jun 24 13:47:35 1996
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remove




From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:44:19 1996
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:32 1996
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:24 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:51 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:14 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:42:55 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:47:25 -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list.
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Is there something wrong with the list administrator.  I have requested to
be off this list twice already.

Here is the text of my first request:

Please take me off this email list.

Here is the text of my second request:

PLEASE TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST - THIS IS MY SECOND REQUEST - I DO NOT EXPECT
TO MAKE A THIRD - IF YOU DO NOT TAKE ME OFF THE LIST I WILL BEGIN
TRANSFERRING EVERY EMAIL MESSAGE FROM THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE'S
MINNESOTA VIKINGS EMAIL LIST, AND YOU TOO WILL BE SWAMPED WITH INFORMATION
YOU DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE!

Please take me off this list.  Although the Minnesota Vikings threat was
only a joke, I do believe it is becoming a very tempting idea.  If people
can not respect the privacy of other people's email addresses, then this
system can never work.  I realize that there is probably some automated way
to get myself off this list, but I have requested your info sheet and not
received it.

I find it humorous how you send email messages to  list members warning
them of the transgressions that will get them off the list, yet when
someone requests cancellation, you ignore them.  I find it disrespectful,
distasteful and angering.

Please take me off this list.




From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:41 1996
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:44:10 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:48:41 -0500
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:43:05 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:44:01 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 11:49:45 1996
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:00:31 1996
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:00:39 1996
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list.
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:00:29 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:49:00 -0500
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list.
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:00:45 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:49:38 -0500
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From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list.
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Please take me off this list.



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:18:12 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:18:36 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list. -Reply
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Message-Id: <s1cfd8d0.077@MAIL.PRESS.JHU.EDU>
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Hey, f---head,

Do you read? NO ONE CAN MANUALLY REMOVE YOU--YOU HAVE TO DO IT
YOURSELF!!!!

When you joined this list, you received instructions on how to
unsubscribe. Obviously, you didn't save them. The instructions have
been posted again and again, but you probably ignored them to.

So, wasting my time again to keep these idiotic messages from
clogging up my mailbox, here is how to get off the list. YOU HAVE TO
DO IT!

By the way, you've been quite a f---head in your spamming of the
list. What maturity.

1) Please send an email To: melatoin-request@ai.mit.edu

2) put YOUR email-address in the From-line. Make sure the address
you're typing is the same address you used when you subscribed (some
people use more than one email-addresses).

3) put nothing in the Subject line - let this line free, without an
entry

4) just type one single word in the text field: unsubscribe

5) Be sure that your email program doesn't put any additional text in
the text field: no signature, no yours sincerely etc.

And GOOD F---ING RIDDANCE, A--HOLE!!!!


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 12:29:23 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:30:01 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Take me off this f---ing list. -Reply
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Message-Id: <s1cfdb7b.099@MAIL.PRESS.JHU.EDU>
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1
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X-Info1: For help file send msg to "melatonin-request@ai.mit.edu" with word "info" in body.
X-Info2: Or, write to "owner-melatonin@ai.mit.edu" with your question.
X-Info3: Please don't include the text of previous articles in your replies to melatonin.
X-Info4: Violations of list policy result in one being off the list.
X-Info5: Subscription changes?  Get the help file.

You are a clueless nitwit, Lori. I've posted the instructions on how
to get off several times. PLEASE READ THEM AND GET OUT OF OUR
LIVES!!!!!!

Or we'll report you to your administrator and get you in trouble for
being such a blatant idiot.

>>> Lori Robb <lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca> - 6/25/96 11:47 AM >>>
Is there something wrong with the list administrator.  I have
requested to be off this list twice already.

Here is the text of my first request:

Please take me off this email list.

Here is the text of my second request:

PLEASE TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST - THIS IS MY SECOND REQUEST - I DO NOT
EXPECT
TO MAKE A THIRD - IF YOU DO NOT TAKE ME OFF THE LIST I WILL BEGIN
TRANSFERRING EVERY EMAIL MESSAGE FROM THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE'S
MINNESOTA VIKINGS EMAIL LIST, AND YOU TOO WILL BE SWAMPED WITH
INFORMATION
YOU DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE!

Please take me off this list.  Although the Minnesota Vikings threat
was only a joke, I do believe it is becoming a very tempting idea. 
If people can not respect the privacy of other people's email
addresses, then this system can never work.  I realize that there is
probably some automated way to get myself off this list, but I have
requested your info sheet and not received it.

I find it humorous how you send email messages to  list members
warning them of the transgressions that will get them off the list,
yet when someone requests cancellation, you ignore them.  I find it
disrespectful, distasteful and angering.

Please take me off this list.






From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 17:45:52 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 15:40:42 -0600
From: Richard Hayes <rico@agt.net>
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To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Take me off this f---ing list.
References: <v0153050aadf5ba5b45fa@[198.163.154.28]>
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X-Info5: Subscription changes?  Get the help file.

What's your F---ing problem, and what do I have to do with it?

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 17:55:33 1996
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Hi Lori,

I'm sorry that you're having such problems with the melatonin subscription.  I 
suggest that you follow the "simple" instructions to get off their list.  I DO NOT 
WANT USELESS E-Mail from you.  I also do not appreciate getting 18 messages that 
should be directed to melatonin@ai.mit.edu.  Please govern yourself RESPONSIBLY, 
and cease this foolishness.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter!

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 20:25:16 1996
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To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: mccartp@ozemail.com.au (Peter McCarthy)
Subject: melatonin & alcohol
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Can anyone enlighten me as to the effects of alcohol on melatonin
absorption/secretion? Is consumption of alcohol contraindicated with
melatonin? Is there a "safe"level of alcohol intake with melatonin? I've
read of the effects of alcohol on jet lag and wonder if this is to do with
melatonin production. 

Also, does supplementation of melatonin reduce or inhibit natural secretions
of the hormone such as testosterone for example? If so, is there a period of
withdrawal necessary after cessation of treatment?

(Please excuse the probabale naivete of these questions, they've probably
all  been addressed before but I'm new to your list and other postings on
the net seem less than reliable.) Thanks, PM. 


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Tue Jun 25 21:33:45 1996
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:31:52 -0400
From: Larry & Mel <daughrty@norfolk.infi.net>
Organization: InfiNet
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To: rico@agt.net
Cc: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Subject: WHY DO I HAVE 19 MESSAGES FROM THESE PEOPLE STATING VULGARITIES LEFT & RIGHT?
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I don't even know who to write to.  Why am I getting this obvious loser, 
Lori Robb's messages and this guy Richard Hayes???  All I wanted was to 
be on this melatonin mailing list and I get this garbage.  Who 
responsible for these ugly messages getting out into the world where 
they don't belong???  I expect this will stop instantly.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 04:25:20 1996
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 09:18 MET DST
From: Jan@mail3.shlink.de, Sommer@mail2.shlink.de
To: <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re.: Take me off this f---ing list
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Lori,

stop this mailbombing and f--k yourself.
Look up a doctor.

Jan

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 05:23:34 1996
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To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: illumina@innet.lu (Luc Streff)
Subject: Re: WHY DO I HAVE 19 MESSAGES FROM THESE PEOPLE STATING VULGARITIES LEFT & RIGHT?
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>I don't even know who to write to.  Why am I getting this obvious loser,
>Lori Robb's messages and this guy Richard Hayes???  All I wanted was to
>be on this melatonin mailing list and I get this garbage.  Who
>responsible for these ugly messages getting out into the world where
>they don't belong???  I expect this will stop instantly.

The message was from lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)

Send a few flames back or simply ignore'm :-)

_Luc_

.........______________________________________________________.......
  Luc Streff - NSP natural sound and pictures
  voice: 329877 fax 326370  Luxembourg
  e-mail: illumina@Innet.lu - nsp@mail.webcom.com - natsoundpict@mediatel.lu
  URL: http://www.webcom.com/redskin/zut
          http://www.webcom.com/nsp



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 09:57:24 1996
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:55:25 -0700
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: "Philip Miller, MD" <bodywise@mail.redshift.com>
Subject: Re.: Take me off this ......
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Really poor impulse control.  Has this list been taken over by alien beings,
agent provacateurs, or just in-your-face, run'm off the road at 70 mph
psychos....  :-(






From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 10:31:17 1996
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:31:30 -0400
From: Michael Hughes <mhughes@mail.press.jhu.edu>
Subject: Loonies on the list
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
Message-Id: <s1d11136.026@MAIL.PRESS.JHU.EDU>
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X-Info5: Subscription changes?  Get the help file.

None of the above. It's like chaos theory; in our highly linked world,
*one* inconsiderate moron can have an effect on lots of us. I think
Lori probably got enough mailbombing and flaming in return to make
her never pull such a rude trick again. I hope that's the case. I
know I did my part to keep it from ever happening again!  ;-)

>>> Philip Miller, MD <bodywise@mail.redshift.com> - 6/26/96 9:55 AM
>>>
Really poor impulse control.  Has this list been taken over by alien
beings, agent provacateurs, or just in-your-face, run'm off the road
at 70 mph psychos....  :-(








From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 11:48:23 1996
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To: "melatonin@ai.mit.edu" <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re.: Take me off this ......
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 11:44:17 -0500
From: dh <dhaley@oxford.net>
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> Really poor impulse control.  Has this list been taken over by alien
beings,
> agent provacateurs, or just in-your-face, run'm off the road at 70 mph
> psychos....  :-(

It's not like her mailbox was overflowing with messages.  Until this "take
me off the list" stuff started, she was probably only getting 1-2 messages a
day.  Big deal!

To get back to melatonin stuff - my daughter bought some Melatonex a few
days ago.  It's a timed release variety.  Anyone have any experiences with
it?

For myself, I ordered the timed release from Melatonin Central on the net. 
It was shipped last Thursday, and I'm in Canada...hopefully customs doesn't
hold it up too long!

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 12:20:21 1996
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:24:47 -0500
To: melatonin@ai.mit.edu
From: lrobb@minet.gov.mb.ca (Lori Robb)
Subject: APOLOGY - I WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN
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I apologize for the trouble I caused - I was put on this e-mail list by a
silly coworker who thought it would be an education for me to get a bunch
of messages in my mailbox.  I did not know about this for quite awhile, so
my service provider deleted my messages when I did not retrieve them.
Thus, I did not have the info file that was sent to me when I subscribed.
I tried a number of ways to use the word "unsubscribe", but was
unsuccessful.  When I finally got a few hints as to how to cancel my
subscription, I did not notice that there was a separate "request" address
to send my cancellation notice to.  I have to admit that I got frustrated
and sent a few too many messages - hoping that I would jar someone into
providing me with the information I needed to cancel. Along with multiple
profanities, I finally received that information. Thanks for the lessons
and all the confidence boosters (regarding my computer skills). I have now
removed myself from the list, and have a much greater awareness of my dirth
of skills in the global electronic community.

Lori



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 12:30:57 1996
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To: melatonin <melatonin@ai.mit.edu>
From: Derek Quinn/SSI1 <Derek_Quinn/SSI1.SSI1@notes-gw.tus.ssi1.com>
Date: 26 Jun 96  9:29:21 EDT
Subject: Emotional mood swings
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Seven and one-half months ago, I began taking 2.5 mg of melatonin each night. I 
noticed
improvement in my ability to sleep through the night for the first two months 
but no real
improvement was sustained beyond that original period. I stopped for 
approximately
one month during February and resumed in March at 1.25 mg per night. I again 
stopped 
taking melatonin two weeks ago and have noticed some effects I was interested in
passing on for comment and learning if others have had similar experiences.

The effects are some mild emotional mood swings bordering on depression which 
have
abated on their own after a few days. I was also wondering if other subscribers 
to this
list have also recently stopped taking melatonin resulting in frustration and 
anger I've
noticed of some responses lately.

This is still an excellent forum, I would only wish that civility could prevail 
over the
frustration we all feel from time to time. Let's learn from the terrific 
questions most of
our subscribers have and overcome our fear of asking or saying what we feel are 
less
than intelligent questions or statements. You don't learn if you never ask or 
make a 
mistake.

Derek.

From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Wed Jun 26 15:07:51 1996
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Subject: Mood swings
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Wed, Jun 26, 1996
12:58:42 PM

If any such mood swings have occurred for me, they have been of a positive
nature once I learned the correct dosage for my particular needs (1 mg,
non-slow release.) Probably resulting from more restful sleep.

I have learned from my own feelings of "tiredness" at bedtime that I do NOT
need to take melatonin every night.

Bob Hosley



From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Thu Jun 27 21:08:24 1996
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From: Pershing Delaup <Pdelaup@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: WHY DO I HAVE 19 MESSAGES FROM THESE PEOPLE STATING
  VULGARITIES LEFT & RIGHT?
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At 01:31 AM 6/26/96 +0000, you wrote:
>I don't even know who to write to.  Why am I getting this obvious loser, 
>Lori Robb's messages and this guy Richard Hayes???  All I wanted was to 
>be on this melatonin mailing list and I get this garbage.  Who 
>responsible for these ugly messages getting out into the world where 
>they don't belong???  I expect this will stop instantly.
>

Reply back at you:

I don't know who you are, but it appears that anyone that requested to be on
that Melatonin newsletter is caught in a chain letter phenomenon.  I
received 29 messages tonite.  First experience.  I don't know how to get
out.  Good luck!!!


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Fri Jun 28 02:44:27 1996
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From: nicolas@netvision.net.il
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Subject: Re: WHY DO I HAVE 19 MESSAGES FROM THESE PEOPLE STATING VULGARITIES LEFT & RIGHT? 
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I could'nt agree more. I was expecting scientific articles and am getting nonsense. Lets hope things will change.
Carol


From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun 30 21:42:16 1996
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From bounce-melatonin@ai.mit.edu  Sun Jun 30 21:46:53 1996
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Messag