From cstacy@ai.mit.edu Sat Jul 10 14:44:26 1993 Return-Path: Received: from corn-pops (corn-pops.ai.mit.edu) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA23088; Sat, 10 Jul 93 14:44:26 EDT From: cstacy@ai.mit.edu (Christopher C. Stacy) Received: by corn-pops (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA05065; Sat, 10 Jul 93 14:44:24 EDT Date: Sat, 10 Jul 93 14:44:24 EDT Message-Id: <9307101844.AA05065@corn-pops> To: square-dancing Subject: new test This should go to the archive. From cstacy@ai.mit.edu Sat Jul 10 15:35:30 1993 Return-Path: Received: from corn-pops (corn-pops.ai.mit.edu) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA24726; Sat, 10 Jul 93 15:35:30 EDT From: cstacy@ai.mit.edu (Christopher C. Stacy) Received: by corn-pops (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA05135; Sat, 10 Jul 93 15:35:28 EDT Date: Sat, 10 Jul 93 15:35:28 EDT Message-Id: <9307101935.AA05135@corn-pops> To: square-dancing Subject: we're back on the air at a new site: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu * To send a message to the group, address your mail to: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu * All administrivia, including subscription changes, should be directed to: square-dancing-request@ai.mit.edu (As a subscriber, you shouldn't see any "bounces" or other mail errors associated with the list. If you do, something is wrong, so please forward them square-dancing-request so I can see them.) DO not send requests to be added or deleted to "square-dancing". Do NOT send requests to be added or deleted to "square-dancing". Do not SEND requests to be added or deleted to "square-dancing". ======================================================================== Some messages were sent to the list that I don't think were distributed, so I have included them here below for you. ======================================================================== From: Richard Nute Message-Id: <9306151651.AA00728@hpvcsa.vcd.hp.com> Subject: More reaction time Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 9:51:53 PDT Hello from Vancouver, Washington, USA: For me, I find that floor time is the biggest factor in building reaction time. As in almost every endeavor, especially one using motor skills, its practice, practice, practice. And, I agree, its the short, four-count calls that require short reaction time, especially when the music beat is fast. If your reaction time is long, then you're going to be late getting through the short call, and then you're late into the next call. At A level, the short calls that always seem to slow me (as well as our group) down are: zig, zag, slip, slide, slither, and swing. These are not popular calls in our area, so we don't get much practice, so I'm always late (read: slow reaction time). For long-count calls, you can make up for slow reaction time by increasing your pace through the call to catch up with the beat. The second factor in improving reaction time is being pushed by a good, upbeat caller. I don't think you can improve your reaction time without being pushed. So, this means, for me, that I've got to dance to lots of different callers, each of whom has his own style and favorite sequences. Dancing too much to the same caller gets you into a rut, where you can anticipate the sequence, almost as a single reaction rather than as a sequence of reactions to the individual calls. Some callers always call to the level of the floor, which too often seems to mean the least level of the floor. Then the dance is slow and boring, with lots of time for reaction. I believe there is a place for this kind of dancing, and some dancers seem to demand this kind of relaxed dancing. I like the challenge of keeping up with the beat of the music, and correctly dancing through any sequence, especially sequences new to me. This is what is fun -- at any level -- from mainstream through advanced (my level). Why is it that callers don't push their club dances, but do a delightful pushing job at festivals and conventions? Our club this past weekend put on a weekend dance where we invite dancers from throughout Oregon and Washington. Our regular club caller started Saturday night with an upbeat hash that was more challenging and fun that anything he has done at regular club dances for the past year! What is "zero reaction time"? It seems to me that we're dancing to the beat of the music, and flowing from one call into another without stopping. If this is the case, then the caller must give the call in advance of the beat of the music so we can flow into the next move. Then, the "zero reaction time" call is one long flow to the beat of the music? Then, there are the folks who don't move to the beat of the music. We have one fellow who rarely moves to the beat, but he keeps up with the calls. Disconcerting, but not interrupting. I tried to move without regard to the music -- its really hard, and not particularly fun. Richard Nute Happy Hoppers (Plus) Square Dance Club Vancouver, Washington, USA ======================================================================== Date: 17 Jun 1993 05:14:11 GMT From: Doug Sewell Message-Id: <1vouj3$86@news.ysu.edu> Organization: Youngstown State University Subject: 1994 National Square Dance Convention This was in rec.folk-dancing, since I didn't see it here I'm forwarding it - Doug [ Article crossposted from rec.folk-dancing ] [ Author was Dennis Godfrey (udjg@toontown.uucp) ] [ Posted on Wed, 16 Jun 1993 19:04:00 GMT ] I am posting this as a favor to the organizers of the 1994 National Square Dance Convention. They realize that this posting is a year before the actual event, however, they want those that are interested to start making their plans now. If you have any questions regarding this announcement, please use the phone numbers listed in the announcement. Square dancers in Oregon are getting ready to host the 43rd National Square Dance Convention June 22-25, 1994. Extensive use is being made of computers for programming, registration, plublicity and business with 25,000 dancers expected for dance events in Portland, Oregon. This convention is the biggest square dance event in the world. For registration forms and information: P.O. Box 5906 Salem, OR 97304-0906 Call (503) 371-6139 For Oregon vacation information call 1-800-547-7842. Oregon will have a registration and information booth at the 1993 convention in St. Louis June 23-26, 1993. ======================================================================== From: Unfrozen Caveman Programmer Message-Id: <9306171717.AA02467@efn.org> Subject: Report on the Oregon State Summer S/D Festival Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Even though "Proper Square Dance attire was required for all Oregon Federation dance activities", Dee Dee Daughtery was not repremanded for non-compliance. She wore black slacks, a black Western shirt and boots on Saturday (the only day I was there). I must say she is a great caller, and I had a wonderful time. For some reason there was no grand march, but we had to wait the same amount of time for the dancing to start. They said that 1100 people registered for the dance. matt@efn.org (Bunny Hugger) ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 17:39 GMT From: James Ozanich <0004120870@mcimail.com> Subject: Trail-In Trail-End Trail-Out Etc Message-Id: <12930617173921/0004120870PK1EM@mcimail.com> Over the years I have seen the phrases Trail-In, Trail-End, and Trail-Out used in conjunction with square dance festivals. I'm curious to know people's interpretation of these phrases. I've never seen a written definition for any of them any would like to know your thoughts. Are these defined in some square dance book or manual somewhere? Are there other similar terms? James Ozanich, Sacramento, CA ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 12:58:55 PDT From: Stewart Kramer Subject: Re: Trail-In Trail-End Trail-Out Etc Message-ID: <9306171559.aa03950@mc.lcs.mit.edu> REPLY TO 06/17/93 11:28 FROM 0004120870@mcimail.com "James Ozanich": Trail-In Trail-End Trail-Out Etc This is just the written version of the old In/End confusion, where some people (notably those from Southern California) have a pronunciation for "in" that sounds very similar to the average American pronunciation for "en" (or the reverse problem, people who pronounce "en" closer to the average "in," as when Rob French calls "Binned the Line"). I usually use "trail in" in the sense that dancers are not expected to arrive all at once, synonymous with "straggle in." "Trail end" doesn't convey to me the same idea, but I know that some people use it to mean the same thing as "trail in." It certainly is in keeping with the Western motif that is popular in the world of square-dance gatherings: "Wagonmasters" in charge of parking for RV/camper/motorhomes, "Club Sheriff" who enforces the dress code, "End of the Trail" for the square dance pioneers, etc. "Trail Out" is obviously the opposite of "Trail In" (although that doesn't mean you couldn't use it as the opposite of "Trail End" if you really wanted to). The PACE Spectacular has never had to deal with this controversy because they've always had a Hello dance and a Goodbye dance. Before Callerlab standardized the names of the calls, there were even more fun variations that arose from just the same kind of mis-hearing, such as Ladies Change vs. Ladies Chain. Some even evolved into new calls, such as All Around the Left Hand Lady & See Saw as corruptions of "Allemande" & "Sashay" (which is itself a corruption of "Chasse'"). ======================================================================== From: Doug Sewell Message-Id: <199306211424.AA14621@cc.ysu.edu> Subject: Singles (males) at convention ? Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 10:24:09 EDT I'm considering going to the convention in Oregon next year (yes, it'll be a busy two weeks: convention, GCA caller's school, then the IAGSDC convention, the latter both in DC). What's the prospects for dancing for an unattached male that is (well, will be) a good plus dancer ? By that time I expect to be pretty good at DBD and dancing "girl's part" as well. And along those lines, twice recently our caller has put us in position where you had pre-DPT formation, boys in the center, then calls "yellow rock the girl behind you"... then says "if you'd listened to the call..." (I like the guy a lot, but I put this several steps below "heads lead right, circle to a line, up to the middle and back, right and left GRAND"). Being an openly gay male makes it even more uncomfortable for some. My solution: I extend my hand to the guy in front of me to shake. Finally: I didn't realize that 'load the boat', 'relay the deucey', 'spin chain the gears', 'motivate', 'cast a shadow', and 'alter the wave' were at one time considered gimmick calls... what's next, bucket of worms ?? ======================================================================== Date: 22 Jun 1993 02:39:32 GMT From: Doug Sewell Message-Id: <205rd4$pbj@news.ysu.edu> Organization: Youngstown State University Subject: You know you've heard too many singing calls... You know you've heard too many singing calls... ... when a song comes on the radio, and you catch yourself saying "circle left" at the beginning... ... when it comes to the chorus and you can't remember anything but "heads you promenade halfway around..." ... when you start to wonder where the extra measures came from... I think I need a new hobby (-: ======================================================================== Message-Id: <9306231509.AA15169@monitor.larc.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 11:09:26 EDT From: Dave Hinde Subject: Sure is quiet It sure is quiet out there. Is everyone either coming back from Louisville or headed to St. Louis, or both? How was the dancing in Louisville? I got a chance to dance to Tim Marriner and Grace Wheatly last weekend, not together - Tim Friday, Grace Saturday. Tim was great, but the crowd was light. Also a lot of new dancers, but Tim can make even mainstream fun. The hall was had wood floors and good A/C. The dance with Grace was crowded, and hot, and the scheduling stank. IMHO (in my humble opinion) from the first tip to the last, the caller should get 50% of the the "mike" time. First we had a C&W band playing, then a clogging demo. Squares started late and were interupted for up to 30 minutes with demos, rounds and C & W. Again IMHO, if you have a demo, or want to do line dances, skip the rounds. The dance was a Cancer Fund benefit. Grace called for free and a local travel agency arranged her flight from N.Mexico. ___/,@___ Dave Hinde, SSDUSA /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov ======================================================================== From: Mary Allison Wu Message-Id: <199306231342.AA11462@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu> Subject: Anyone for St. Louis?? Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 08:42:16 -0500 (CDT) Ken and Helena were over the other day and we talked about trying to have a netogether (do you like that new word) in St. Louis. If you have any brilliant suggestions for a meeting time/place contact Ken and Helena Robinson at the Marriott. Watch the message board (at the convention) for more details. So - who should I be looking for? Any of our callers working any afterparties?? -- I really hate this (bleep) machine, I wish that they would sell it. It never does quite what I want, But only what I tell it. Mary Allison Wu (mary@uicsl.csl.uiuc.edu) Urbana, Illinois ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 19:45 GMT From: James Ozanich <0004120870@mcimail.com> Subject: Re: Reaction Time Message-Id: <82930625194528/0004120870PK2EM@mcimail.com> This comment is in response to a posting from Dave Hinde, originally posted June 8, 1993. Dave writes (in part): > The problem, at least in this area, is that none of the callers want to > call mainstream. They think its a step down to call a mainstream dance. > The result is dancers that should stay at mainstream for awhile, or > forever, are dancing plus and "diluting" the plus floors. This means the > callers have to lower the plus level to meet the dancers, resulting in > boring dances and a high dropout rate. If I hire a caller, espicially for a hoedown, I tell him/her what level I expect the dance to be. If the caller for some reason do not want to call mainstream, and that's what I want, I simply do not book them. (And I do book a lot of mainstream only or red light/green light mainstream/plus dances.) If the dancers or club officers see a problem with not enough mainstream dances being offered perhaps they should take a harder stance on insisting for mainstream dances (with a plus level start tip, if that will help draw the crowd). This whole issue may need a grass roots type of involvement from dancers up. James Ozanich, Sacramento, CA ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 05:22 GMT From: "Gary M. Darcy" <0002861087@mcimail.com> Subject: NEED ADVICE IN FORMING INDEPENDENT/CALLER-RUN CLUB Message-Id: <60930628052206/0002861087NA4EM@mcimail.com> Am considering forming a square dance club. One that is independent of any regional associations or state organizations. May or may not be totally caller-run. Does anyone have any information or advice to offer those people considering such an endeavor ? For insurance, is there an alternative to United Square Dancers of America (USDA)? Does anyone know of any little known tax "angles" that might benefit a non-profit square dance club? I have been asked by a number of "locals" to look into the possibility of putting together a "non-aligned/independent" club. Why? Because dancers in this area are getting pretty fed up with the BS that seems to trickle down to the local clubs from the u pper and middle level bureaucracy of state and regional associations. Any advice that can be offered will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, GARY DARCY PALMDALE, CALIFORNIA ======================================================================== From: jillm Message-Id: <9306282008.AA12810@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: clubs... Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 13:08:54 PDT Well if it is caller-run it is assumed to be a for profit organization.... I think caller-run workshops have the less involvement in politics of dancer associations...since people can just come pay for the evening or month, dance and go home...not holing office, having to serve on committees, not having to go to association meetings etc. many dancers fine this very appealing to them....mayn callers find this a very successful way to build a large following. You might be able to get insurance through California State Dance Council as for "tax angles" you would have to incorporate and get a non-profit staus status issue by the state...there are many requirements you must meet I hope my .02 has helped in some small way jillm@netcom.com ======================== end forwarded messages ======================== Hey, DO NOT send requests to be added or deleted to "square-dancing" ! Cheers, Chris From ksr@cykick.jvnc.net Sat Jul 10 18:52:22 1993 Return-Path: Received: from tigger.jvnc.net by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA01117; Sat, 10 Jul 93 18:52:22 EDT Received: from [192.67.236.25] (cykick.jvnc.net) by tigger.jvnc.net with SMTP id AA05348 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu); Sat, 10 Jul 1993 18:50:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199307102250.AA05348@tigger.jvnc.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 18:50:27 -0500 To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: ksr@cykick.jvnc.net (Ken and/or Helena Robinson) X-Sender: cykick@tigger.jvnc.net Subject: Re: Anyone for St. Louis? (party and NSDC comments) Cc: lgcwsd@cc.ysu.edu Well, now that the list is back on-line...and we have just a few minutes...we just wanted to mention that the first "netogether" (great term, Mary!) did indeed take place at the end of the National Square Dance Convention. About a dozen folks with Internet addresses signed in, augmented by assorted non-Internet members of the Rutgers Promenaders and a guest from Nevada. No, we didn't dance a tip, but had a great time munching and yakking. Hopefully we'll do it again in Portland next year... Thanks to all who came! Our note on the message board did generate some inquiries about net access, notably via Prodigy and CompuServe - replies are forthcoming to those folks. BTW, we picked up a pad of registration forms for Portland. If you're interested, send us a USnail address and we'll get one (or more) to you. A few personal comments re St. Louis to start things rolling: 1. After the carpeting in Louisville (C3/4), the last thing we needed to see was MORE carpet - but there it was. In the challenge halls, the contra hall, and the MS hall. Helena never had knee problems before, but it didn't take long for the effects to become evident. Ken spent one night dancing A2 because the knees protested (fortunately Helena had no problem getting a partner for C3 - water was another story...). 2. And then there was the sound in the round dance halls - 3 teaches for the price of one! This section was POORLY sounded: speakers placed incorrectly, rooms partitioned with shower curtain material. Our suspicion was that this section of the newly-expanded Convention Center may not have been ready for the Pre-Convention Dance (one year before), so it may not have been used for dancing. Fri. and Sat. nite schedules were revised so all dancing was in one hall, with alternate phases programmed. 3. Food service left lots to be desired in terms of selection (esp. for those of us who don't eat ham & cheese, turkey & cheese, etc.). Never quite figured out why the ala carte section of the "main" dining area closed after a day... On the other hand, the jalapeno popcorn was a hit wherever we took it! 4. This convention gets the award for fastest Sat. nite ceremonies! Only 45 minutes for Parade of States (and countries), intros of the NEC and Convention Committee, and the awarding of the '97 and '98 Conventions. Actually had lots of time to make 8 p.m. dance sessions - a first in our memories! 5. Vendor layout a great improvement over Cincy! For those who want to plan ahead, sites of the next few Conventions: 1994 - Portland, OR 1995 - Birmingham, AL 1996 - San Antonio, TX 1997 - Orlando, FL 1998 - Charlotte, NC We attended Friday's Bid Session. Orlando was selected over Louisville, and Charlotte was chosen over Denver. If anyone's interested in our comments and observations of this session (usually a good indicator over what people have been concerned about at the current convention, also the chance where those interested in bidding for a future Convention make their intentions known), let us know. Final personal note: For those keeping track, Helena's latest CT scan came out CLEAN and the surgeon promoted her to 6-month reviews (we'll see if the oncologist agrees in Sept/Oct). We're now off to dinner to celebrate! Happy Dancing! Helena & Ken Robinson @cykick.jvnc.net From dave@it.larc.nasa.gov Mon Jul 12 09:39:12 1993 Return-Path: Received: from express.larc.nasa.gov by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA29033; Mon, 12 Jul 93 09:39:12 EDT Received: from it.larc.nasa.gov by express.larc.nasa.gov with SMTP id BA29285 (SMTP/Lite-1.15) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 93 09:39:02 -0400 Received: by it.larc.nasa.gov (4.1/server2.4) id AA11706; Mon, 12 Jul 93 09:40:32 EDT Message-Id: <9307121340.AA11706@it.larc.nasa.gov> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 09:40:32 EDT From: Dave Hinde To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: we're back on the air Glad to see this service back up and "on the air"! Thanks for the efforts. A couple of comments on "old" messages. > Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 19:45 GMT > From: James Ozanich <0004120870@mcimail.com> > Subject: Re: Reaction Time > > The problem, at least in this area, is that none of the callers want to > > call mainstream. They think its a step down to call a mainstream dance. > > The result is dancers that should stay at mainstream for awhile, or > > forever, are dancing plus and "diluting" the plus floors. This means the > > callers have to lower the plus level to meet the dancers, resulting in > > boring dances and a high dropout rate. > > If I hire a caller, espicially for a hoedown, I tell him/her what level > I expect the dance to be. If the caller for some reason do not want to > call mainstream, and that's what I want, I simply do not book them. (And > I do book a lot of mainstream only or red light/green light mainstream/plus > dances.) If the dancers or club officers see a problem with not enough > mainstream dances being offered perhaps they should take a harder stance on > insisting for mainstream dances (with a plus level start tip, if that will > help draw the crowd). This whole issue may need a grass roots type of > involvement from dancers up. The real problem in this area is that the callers have too much say in running the dances. Very few "out-of-town" or "special" callers are hired, most of the dances are "club" dances. Personally, I think this has hurt dancing around here (Norfolk, Va.). I think a greater variety of callers and dances keeps the activity from getting boring. ====================================================== > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 05:22 GMT > From: "Gary M. Darcy" <0002861087@mcimail.com> > Subject: NEED ADVICE IN FORMING INDEPENDENT/CALLER-RUN CLUB > > Am considering forming a square dance club. One that is independent of any > regional associations or state organizations. May or may not be totally > caller-run. Does anyone have any information or advice to offer those people > considering such an endeavor ? > > For insurance, is there an alternative to United Square Dancers of America > (USDA)? Does anyone know of any little known tax "angles" that might benefit > non-profit square dance club? > > I have been asked by a number of "locals" to look into the possibility of > putting together a "non-aligned/independent" club. Why? Because dancers in > this area are getting pretty fed up with the BS that seems to trickle down to > the local clubs from the u pper and middle level bureaucracy of state and > regional associations. > > Any advice that can be offered will be greatly appreciated. I tried to get a similar group started a couple years ago, with Tim Marriner as caller. We did join the local council for insurance reasons. Basically I got a couple people to agree to help, then we rented a hall, hired a cuer, and had a couple dances. All the money that was left went to the caller. No meetings, no politics, no membership, just come and dance and enjoy.o The level was Plus, with DBD or whatever, as requested. Our first few dances were OK, but the hall we were using went out of business. I was the key organizer, and didn't have the time to put into it last year. I may try again this September. As far as taxes, etc. If you form a committee, and write up some minimal by-laws, you can say something like "a donation will be taken up to cover the expenses of sound equipment, records, etc." The dance is technically run by the committee, and is non-profit. > ___/,@___ Dave Hinde, SSDUSA /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov From charleen@wiretap.spies.com Mon Jul 12 10:23:01 1993 Return-Path: Received: from wiretap.Spies.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA01107; Mon, 12 Jul 93 10:23:01 EDT Received: by wiretap.Spies.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22410; Mon, 12 Jul 93 07:23:07 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 07:23:07 PDT From: charleen@wiretap.spies.com (Charleen Bunjiovianna) Message-Id: <9307121423.AA22410@wiretap.Spies.COM> To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Attire at the Oregon Summer Festival ======================================================================== From: Unfrozen Caveman Programmer Message-Id: <9306171717.AA02467@efn.org> Subject: Report on the Oregon State Summer S/D Festival Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Even though "Proper Square Dance attire was required for all Oregon Federation dance activities", Dee Dee Daughtery was not repremanded for non-compliance. She wore black slacks, a black Western shirt and boots on Saturday (the only day I was there). I must say she is a great caller, and I had a wonderful time. Um, Rank *does* Have Its Privileges, you know. Do you think a female dancer could have gotten away with wearing slacks and a Western shirt (without wearing a "Boy" badge)? Charleen who is tempted to try it at Jubilee in October, but only if I can get a male partner to wear a petticoat From charleen@wiretap.spies.com Mon Jul 12 11:39:30 1993 Return-Path: Received: from wiretap.Spies.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA05431; Mon, 12 Jul 93 11:39:30 EDT Received: by wiretap.Spies.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23288; Mon, 12 Jul 93 08:39:36 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 08:39:36 PDT From: charleen@wiretap.spies.com (Charleen Bunjiovianna) Message-Id: <9307121539.AA23288@wiretap.Spies.COM> To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu ======================================================================== > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 93 05:22 GMT > From: "Gary M. Darcy" <0002861087@mcimail.com> > Subject: NEED ADVICE IN FORMING INDEPENDENT/CALLER-RUN CLUB > Message-Id: <60930628052206/0002861087NA4EM@mcimail.com> > > I have been asked by a number of "locals" to look into the possibility > of putting together a "non-aligned/independent" club. Why? Because > dancers in this area are getting pretty fed up with the BS that seems > to trickle down to the local clubs from the u pper and middle level > bureaucracy of state and regional associations. Your dancers are not alone. I think dancer associations at the Mainstream and Plus levels are on their way to becoming as extinct as the dodo. A couple of years ago, when my partner and I were dancing Plus and travelling to a lot of the state square dance festivals, we noticed a couple of things: -The quality of the festival was inversely proportional to the amount of on-mike time spent by the organizers in self-congratulation; -The worst dancers were often the people in the "uniform" of the state or regional organization sponsoring the event. Since becoming a Challenge dancer, I've noticed neither to be true. PACE festivals are run with the dancer in mind, first and foremost. Each has a feedback session (with the callers in attendance) after the Goodbye dance, and the Board listens to what you have to say. The typical PACE board member doesn't show up in a $500 outfit so that we can all tell how special she is; she's at the door taking money, or checking the coffee and water urns, or distributing flyers, etc. I've only been to one non-PACE major festival (AACC in Toledo-which-was-Dayton-that-year) but it seemed pretty dancer-oriented, too. Charleen From charleen@wiretap.spies.com Mon Jul 12 13:11:19 1993 Return-Path: Received: from wiretap.Spies.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA09918; Mon, 12 Jul 93 13:11:19 EDT Received: by wiretap.Spies.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24485; Mon, 12 Jul 93 10:11:26 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 10:11:26 PDT From: charleen@wiretap.spies.com (Charleen Bunjiovianna) Message-Id: <9307121711.AA24485@wiretap.Spies.COM> To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Clarification (or, "let's muddy the waters even further") Before anybody jumps on me, I didn't mean to imply that Challenge dancing or the organization thereof is in any way superior to Mainstream/Plus (though it is...no, no, just KIDDING!! :-). I do consider them sufficiently distinct activities that they should be treated differently. Consider contra dancing, which uses some square dance calls in different ways...no one thinks contras are WSD. Ditto New England squares. Challenge dancing uses some Mainstream/Plus calls in different ways but adds hundreds of them that are not on the M/P lists, virtually eliminates the promenade and the swing-your-partner variety of swing, plays fast and loose with the revered left allemande, has no singing calls (other than for novelty's sake), and has very few gender-linked calls, thus making the gender-based dress code pretty superfluous. (I'm hoping everyone will forget about Curlique, including Callerlab.) And as long as I'm being ornery, I'd like to say that I think it's a crock to call something like a Do Paso or a Dive Thru at, say, C-3. Sure, it's on the Mainstream list, and sure, you're supposed to know it, but in Real Life [tm], it is rarely if ever used in calling that level, right? Just as words fall out of usage, so do calls, and circumstances influence vocabulary. It's the pretense that Mainstream/Plus/Advanced/Challenge is one big happy activity that needs to be looked at, IMHO. Charleen From asente@mv.us.adobe.com Tue Jul 13 20:46:58 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA18921; Tue, 13 Jul 93 20:46:58 EDT Received: by mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA26741; Tue, 13 Jul 93 17:46:50 -0700 Received: by baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA08101; Tue, 13 Jul 93 17:46:48 -0700 Message-Id: <9307140046.AA08101@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Square Dance attire Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 17:46:47 -0700 From: asente@mv.us.adobe.com X-Mts: smtp One of the high points of the recent IAGSDC convention in Seattle was arranging for a contingent of men in leather to arrive in the C1 hall during Ed Foote's calling hours. This resulted in a square with several shirtless men in leather vests or leather harnesses (more than one sporting visible body piercings), one wearing a leather jockstrap and leather chaps with nothing on beneath (in other words, bare-assed). I have never in my dancing career seen a caller so assiduously avoid looking at a square. -paul From mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu Wed Jul 14 10:16:57 1993 Return-Path: Received: from eagle.csl.uiuc.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA09505; Wed, 14 Jul 93 10:16:57 EDT Received: by eagle.csl.uiuc.edu id AA04634 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu); Wed, 14 Jul 1993 08:47:49 -0500 From: Mary Allison Wu Message-Id: <199307141347.AA04634@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu> Subject: Square Dance attire (fwd) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 08:47:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 698 Paul writes: > One of the high points of the recent IAGSDC convention in Seattle was > arranging for a contingent of men in leather to arrive in the C1 hall > during Ed Foote's calling hours. Sounds amusing. > I have never in my dancing career seen a caller so assiduously avoid > looking at a square. But I bet a lot of other people WERE looking at the square (either going "WHAT are they wearing? or Ohhhh yum). So - when are they gonna have one of these conventions in the midwest somewhere? -- A light-haired cat will bring its owner silver; a dark-haired cat will bring its owner gold. -- Ancient Chinese Proverb Mary Allison Wu (mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu) Urbana, Illinois From leiba@watson.ibm.com Wed Jul 14 11:12:44 1993 Received: from watson.ibm.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA11301; Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:12:44 EDT Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5537; Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:12:39 EDT Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 6122; Wed, 14 Jul 1993 11:12:34 EDT Received: from earth.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:12:32 EDT Return-Path: Received: by earth.watson.ibm.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 1.2.9/) id AA0133; Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:12:33 -0700 Message-Id: <9307141812.AA0133@earth.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <199307141347.AA04634@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:09:58 EST From: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" To: mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu Cc: Square Dance Mailing List Subject: Square Dance attire X-External-Networks: yes > So - when are they gonna have one of these conventions in the midwest > somewhere? In 1995. The 1994 IAGSDC convention will be in DC over Independence Day weekend, and the 1995 convention will be in Chicago, over Memorial Day weekend. Barry Leiba From news@news.ysu.edu Wed Jul 14 11:46:44 1993 Return-Path: Received: from news.ysu.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA13387; Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:46:44 EDT Received: by news.ysu.edu id AA26734 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 14 Jul 1993 11:25:45 -0400 Received: from GATEWAY by news.ysu.edu with netnews for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu (square-dancing@ai.mit.edu) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Date: 14 Jul 1993 15:25:43 GMT From: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) Message-Id: <2218hn$q3d@news.ysu.edu> Organization: Youngstown State University Sender: news@news.ysu.edu References: <199307141347.AA04634@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Square Dance attire Mary Allison Wu (mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu) wrote: : Paul writes: : > One of the high points of the recent IAGSDC convention in Seattle was : > arranging for a contingent of men in leather to arrive in the C1 hall : > during Ed Foote's calling hours. : Sounds amusing. I can just imagine Ed trying to avoid looking at that set when he said "skirt work, ladies". : > I have never in my dancing career seen a caller so assiduously avoid : > looking at a square. : But I bet a lot of other people WERE looking at the square (either : going "WHAT are they wearing? or Ohhhh yum). I would imagine the latter was more commonplace. I saw the "leather tip" (actually it was several tips over an hour), and the outfits were rather "interesting" - and yummy. : So - when are they gonna have one of these conventions in the midwest : somewhere? The 1994 IAGSDC convention is in Washington DC on the 4th of July weekend or thereabouts, the 1995 convention is in Chicago on Memorial Day weekend. Don't miss it (they're already taking registrations). If you can't wait till then, The Great Chicago Crossfire V is this coming Labor Day weekend. Callers are Saundra Bryant, Doug and Don Sprosty, Sparky Sparks, and club callers. For information call 312-248-8110. -- Doug Sewell, Tech Support, Computer Center, Youngstown State University doug@cc.ysu.edu doug@ysub.bitnet !cc.ysu.edu!doug Geek (ca. 1942): a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake - Websters. From bsw!carl@uunet.uu.net Wed Jul 14 12:04:15 1993 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA13829; Wed, 14 Jul 93 12:04:15 EDT Received: from spool.uu.net (via LOCALHOST) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA26251; Wed, 14 Jul 93 12:04:08 -0400 Received: from bsw.UUCP by spool.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 120247.15927; Wed, 14 Jul 1993 12:02:47 EDT Received: by lithium.geoworks.com (5.51/ardeb:5.22) id AA24834; Wed, 14 Jul 93 08:56:50 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 08:56:50 PDT From: bsw!bsw!carl@uunet.uu.net Message-Id: <9307141556.AA24834@lithium.geoworks.com> To: leiba@watson.ibm.com, mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Square Dance attire Cc: , watson.ibm.Dance@com.arpa, watson.ibm.List@com.arpa, watson.ibm.Mailing@com.arpa, watson.ibm.Square@com.arpa You might also note that the 1995 Chicago Convention will be held at the same time and in the same hotel as the International Mr. Leather (IML) contest. You will either satisfy or ignite your curiosity regarding leather folk. Personally, I can't wait! carl williamson carl@geoworks.com From LIBERMSA@hugse2.harvard.edu Wed Jul 14 12:23:05 1993 Return-Path: Received: from HUGSE2.HARVARD.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA14867; Wed, 14 Jul 93 12:23:05 EDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 12:23:11 -0400 (EDT) From: LIBERMSA@hugse2.harvard.edu (SARAH M. LIBERMAN) Message-Id: <930714122311.3ba8@HUGSE2.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Weekend To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"square-dancing@ai.mit.edu" Weeeel, since my parents can't go, we've decided to go to the weekend in New Hampshire with Jim Lee and Jim Pulaski. I think it's the Carnival weekend. We're looking forward to that. We haven't been on a weekend since the Sweethearts Ball in Feb. That was so mcuh fun! Just had to share my excitement! We don't get to go to many weekends.... Sarah *Smile* From @mintaka.lcs.mit.edu,@jlev.hp.aol.net:stephenph@aol.com Fri Jul 16 18:37:13 1993 Return-Path: <@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu,@jlev.hp.aol.net:stephenph@aol.com> Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA11343; Fri, 16 Jul 93 18:37:13 EDT Received: from MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id af01835; 16 Jul 93 14:56 EDT Received: from jlev.hp.aol.net by mintaka.lcs.mit.edu id aa19096; 16 Jul 93 13:01 EDT Received: by jlev.hp.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA00156; Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:58:49 -0400 From: stephenph@aol.com X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Sender: stephenph@aol.com Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at lcs.mit.edu Errors-To: Reply-To: stephenph@aol.com Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at lcs.mit.edu Message-Id: <9307161254.tn14999@aol.com> To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:54:13 EDT Subject: Levels, levels, levels >And as long as I'm being ornery, I'd like to say that I think it's a >crock to call something like a Do Paso or a Dive Thru at, say, C-3. >Sure, it's on the Mainstream list, and sure, you're supposed to know >it, but in Real Life [tm], it is rarely if ever used in calling that >level, right? Just as words fall out of usage, so do calls, and >circumstances influence vocabulary. It's the pretense that >Mainstream/Plus/Advanced/Challenge is one big happy activity that needs >to be looked at, IMHO. > >Charleen I disagree. Square dance levels include all the previous levels. Therefore, the Challenge dancer must know all the calls in Mainstream, Plus, and Advanced. There is no division, just a continuum of square dance skill levels. I can have fun at Mainstream, Plus, or Advanced, and the only time I ever get bored is during a basic/mainstream class, which I angel as an investment in future dance partners. I see no difference between levels, except what I'm expected to know. Whenever the caller throws in a "ringer" like Dive Thru at Advanced, I laugh because that's part of the challenge to my skill and attentiveness. I can't see barring calls from certain levels based on usage. Carrying this to its logical conclusion, we'd end up with only a handful of calls left, and there would be no challenge to dancing. You'd always know what to expect. Challenge dancing is different, I'll give you that, but not as different as you make it out to be. Steve Hunnicutt Chesapeake Squares Baltimore, Maryland From rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu Fri Jul 16 19:51:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA14034; Fri, 16 Jul 93 19:51:49 EDT Received: from hawg.Stanford.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa06460; 16 Jul 93 19:09 EDT Received: by Hawg.Stanford.EDU (5.57/-eef) id AA08699; Fri, 16 Jul 93 16:08:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 16:08:03 -0700 Message-Id: <9307162308.AA08699@Hawg.Stanford.EDU> From: "Robert S. French" Sender: rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu To: stephenph@aol.com Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: stephenph@aol.com's message of Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:54:13 EDT <9307161254.tn14999@aol.com> Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels Another thing you must realize is that different calls are popular in different areas. I bet when I go home to Kentucky this Christmas I will hear plenty of do paso and dive thrus at the local MS clubs. If a call is truly not used at a particular level, then it should be removed from that level by Callerlab (like cross trail thru, left turn thru, and partner tag are currently being removed from MS). "walk around your corner, start a do-pa-so, head leadies center tea cup chain but interrupt after each 1/4 with an all four couples R&L thru" :-) Rob From @mser.hp.aol.net:stephenph@aol.com Sun Jul 25 14:48:13 1993 Return-Path: <@mser.hp.aol.net:stephenph@aol.com> Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA27676; Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:48:13 EDT Received: from mser.hp.aol.net by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa17046; 25 Jul 93 14:47 EDT Received: by aol.com (16.8/16.2) id AA02851; Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:40:10 -0400 From: stephenph@aol.com X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Sender: stephenph@aol.com Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at mc.lcs.mit.edu Errors-To: Reply-To: stephenph@aol.com Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at mc.lcs.mit.edu Message-Id: <9307251446.tn24559@aol.com> To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:46:27 EDT Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels >Another thing you must realize is that different calls are popular in >different areas. I bet when I go home to Kentucky this Christmas I >will hear plenty of do paso and dive thrus at the local MS clubs. If >a call is truly not used at a particular level, then it should be >removed from that level by Callerlab (like cross trail thru, left turn >thru, and partner tag are currently being removed from MS). My club has a great deal of fun with cross trail thru, especially since our class caller uses it sloppily to get to a left alamen. Our class then graduates and then our club caller shows them the actual call. Left turn thru and partner tag are also fun. (especially partner tag! yow!) One of my beefs used to be the use of calls like slip, swing, zig, zag, etc. in Advanced. Why make a new call for centers trade? It seemed like a useless thing, especially during class when I was still trying to keep all the new calls straight. But now, I see that the shorter names force you to think quicker and raises the challenge to you skill. I love slip, slide, slither, swing calls, especially when the caller "stacks" them! I simply believe that dropping calls leads to less fun for the dancers. If the caller needs a partner tag, but its not on the list, she calls "face your partner (that's the one next to you, dear), pass thru." "Partner tag" is lots more fun. Also, move calls from mainstream to plus (hypothetically) does not bother me as much as keeping a call on the mainstream list but dropping it from the challenge list. If you can't do a dive thru then why bother? Steve Hunnicutt Chesapeake Squares Baltimore, Maryland stephenph@aol.com From rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu Sun Jul 25 16:40:58 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA02023; Sun, 25 Jul 93 16:40:58 EDT Received: from hawg.Stanford.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa17264; 25 Jul 93 16:40 EDT Received: by Hawg.Stanford.EDU (5.57/-eef) id AA06389; Sun, 25 Jul 93 13:38:41 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 13:38:41 -0700 Message-Id: <9307252038.AA06389@Hawg.Stanford.EDU> From: "Robert S. French" Sender: rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu To: stephenph@aol.com Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: stephenph@aol.com's message of Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:46:27 EDT <9307251446.tn24559@aol.com> Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels From: stephenph@aol.com Reply-To: stephenph@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 14:46:27 EDT Also, move calls from mainstream to plus (hypothetically) does not bother me as much as keeping a call on the mainstream list but dropping it from the challenge list. If you can't do a dive thru then why bother? Lists are always perfect supersets as you go up in levels. There's no such thing as dropping something from Challenge but keeping it on Mainstream. I think what Charleen was originally complaining about was that she wished Challenge callers wouldn't use some of the calls on the list, because they had dropped out of common usage at the lower levels. Technically, there's nothing wrong with calling a do paso at C-4. Rob From leiba@watson.ibm.com Mon Jul 26 08:07:07 1993 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA23755; Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:07:07 EDT Received: from watson.ibm.com by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa20314; 26 Jul 93 8:06 EDT Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0041; Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:05:57 EDT Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 5201; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:05:47 EDT Received: from earth.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:05:47 EDT Return-Path: Received: by earth.watson.ibm.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 1.2.9/) id AA0491; Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:05:39 -0700 Message-Id: <9307261505.AA0491@earth.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <9307251446.tn24559@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 07:57:14 EST From: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" To: stephenph@aol.com, square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Stacking calls (was "Levels, levels, levels") X-External-Networks: yes Steve Hunnicutt says: > I love slip, slide, slither, > swing calls, especially when the caller "stacks" them! :petpeeve. A sequence of those calls usually works well *only* when the caller stacks them. For that matter, square dance calls in general only work when they're stacked - that is, when you have the next call before you've finished the previous one. If you trust the body flow, the sequence "slip, slide, slither, swing" works very well. If you slip, then stop, slide, then stop, slither, then stop, swing, then stop, it's AWful. I think the people who don't like such stacked calls are the same ones who can manage to turn the wrong way on a "roll". :epetpeeve. Barry Leiba leiba@watson.ibm.com From koft@gandalf.rutgers.edu Mon Jul 26 09:34:54 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA27520; Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:34:54 EDT Received: from gandalf.rutgers.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa20734; 26 Jul 93 9:34 EDT Received: by gandalf.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.5/3.08) id AA11892; Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:33:43 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 9:33:40 EDT From: Dan Koft To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Stacking calls (was "Levels, levels, levels") In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 26 Jul 93 07:57:14 EST Message-Id: > Steve Hunnicutt says: > > I love slip, slide, slither, > > swing calls, especially when the caller "stacks" them! > > :petpeeve. > A sequence of those calls usually works well *only* when the caller stacks > them. For that matter, square dance calls in general only work when they're > stacked - that is, when you have the next call before you've finished the > previous one. If you trust the body flow, the sequence "slip, slide, > slither, swing" works very well. If you slip, then stop, slide, then stop, > slither, then stop, swing, then stop, it's AWful. I think the people who > don't like such stacked calls are the same ones who can manage to turn the > wrong way on a "roll". > :epetpeeve. > > Barry Leiba > leiba@watson.ibm.com > > Stacking calls is when a caller has given the commands for calls earlier than necessary, not when the commands are given prior to the preceeding call being completed. Beats of Music Callers words Dancers action Heads square thru 1-10 Right & Left thru Heads square thru 11-18 Swing thru Right & left thru 19-24 Centers run Swing thru ... The above is (roughly) the proper delivery time for the calls. Stacking would be, for example, saying Right & left thru, Swing thru, and Centers run all within beats 1-10 but then allowing the dancers beats 11-28 to complete the calls. Clipping occurs when not enough time is allowed to complete the calls. This is not to say that it is wrong to stack "slip, slide, slither, swing" just there is a fine line between acceptable "lead time" and "stacking" especially when the sequence is of short calls. Dan Dan Koft, Hill 133, Busch Campus dot dot dot: koft@gandalf.rutgers.edu Rutgers University, Computing Services bang bang: {any}!rutgers!gandalf!koft Piscataway, NJ 08855 ring ring: (908) 932-3216 From charleen@wiretap.spies.com Mon Jul 26 11:18:07 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA02156; Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:18:07 EDT Received: from wiretap.spies.com by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa21298; 26 Jul 93 11:17 EDT Received: by wiretap.Spies.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23621; Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:17:16 PDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:17:16 PDT From: Charleen Bunjiovianna Message-Id: <9307261517.AA23621@wiretap.Spies.COM> To: rfrench@cs.stanford.edu, stephenph@aol.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu > Also, move calls from mainstream to plus (hypothetically) does not bother me > as much as keeping a call on the mainstream list but dropping it from the > challenge list. If you can't do a dive thru then why bother? > > Lists are always perfect supersets as you go up in levels. There's no > such thing as dropping something from Challenge but keeping it on > Mainstream. I think what Charleen was originally complaining about > was that she wished Challenge callers wouldn't use some of the calls > on the list, because they had dropped out of common usage at the lower > levels. Technically, there's nothing wrong with calling a do paso at > C-4. Rob Actually, that wasn't it at all, but apparently I was being much too subtle. (Yeah, John, it was something new I was trying.) Stephen, believe it or not, I *can* do a dive thru. And a do paso. And a star promenade. I have trouble believing these are useful things to know at Challenge. My point is that like language, Challenge dancing is fluid. It evolves. Sure, you can call a do paso at C-4, but how many people do? The activity is defined by what people do, regardless of what Callerlab says, and what people do is streamline. Take the pattycake allemande left that Barry Leiba gets upset about. A allemande left in a Challenge sequence is almost always an unspoken "Okay, you can relax now, you've done this sequence successfully", and it's no coincidence that many dancers high-five it: it's a gesture of triumph, not some lame left arm turn that puts you back right where you started. (Yeah, yeah, I know it's supposed to put you back facing your partner; don't bother correcting me.) It's like saying "can't" for "cannot" or "wouldn'tve" for "would not have"; it's quick, informal and gets the job done. It's amusing how defensive a few people get when the notion of Challenge dancing as a distinct and separate animal is introduced. I mean, we like to pretend that square dancing is America's folk dance and all that, but MWSD as we know it isn't even as old as I am. (It's probably not even as old as Sybalsky.) And Challenge is even newer. So it's not as though we're discarding some venerable tradition by daring for a moment to think of Challenge as stand-alone. Have we gotten so sensitized to charges of elitism that we can't even consider the cultural differences? And there's a real danger in thinking of Mainstream/Plus/Advanced/C-* as contiguous activities, and the indications are that it's getting worse: People attempting to dance beyond their level of competence because C-4 (or insert local-highest-WSD-level here) is seen as the ultimate goal, and if you dance some level "less" than that, obviously you're not among the best. Charleen From DLA@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu Mon Jul 26 12:23:18 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA05230; Mon, 26 Jul 93 12:23:18 EDT Received: from sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa21519; 26 Jul 93 12:21 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 9:22:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Debbie L. Ceder" Message-Id: <930726092222.20a02952@SBHEP.PHYSICS.UCSB.EDU> Subject: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu" > Take the pattycake allemande left that Barry Leiba gets upset about. > A allemande left in a Challenge sequence is almost always an unspoken > "Okay, you can relax now, you've done this sequence successfully", I think you'd find a number of well-respected Challenge people who would adamently disagree with that statement. > it's a gesture of triumph, not some lame left arm turn that puts you back > right where you started. It *IS* a gesture of triumph, and especially on the RLG's many Challenge dancers want to complete the whole call, as if they were shaking the hands of each of the team members in the square on a sequence well done, or LA and Promenade Home (the CORRECT direction) to give time for the wave of relief and feeling of success to wash over all the dancers as they prepare for the next challenge. > and it's no coincidence that many dancers high-five it: The pattycake (or high-five) LA was started in tape groups, where people either didn't want to expend the energy, and/or didn't have the room in tiny garages or living room spaces to execute the maneuvers in a timely or graceful manner. This "tradition" spread to the live dances when many callers began placing people very close to home on the LA or RLG. Callers are at fault for continually ending squares too close to home to make it "worthwhile" to execute the calls. Pet peeve: when a caller *does* place dancers halfway from home for a LA or RLG, yet dancers force a "back-up" to home rather than a Promenade. +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Debbie L. Ceder Telephone: (805) 893-2058 | | High Energy Physics secretary TeleFAX: (805) 893-8597 | | Physics Department Internet: dla@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu | | University of California Bitnet: dla@sbhep.bitnet | | Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9530 HEPnet: 45181::dla | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From leiba@watson.ibm.com Mon Jul 26 13:33:10 1993 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA08094; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:33:10 EDT Received: from watson.ibm.com by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa00371; 26 Jul 93 13:21 EDT Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4259; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:21:32 EDT Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 9661; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:21:23 EDT Received: from earth.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:21:22 EDT Return-Path: Received: by earth.watson.ibm.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 1.2.9/) id AA0526; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:21:12 -0700 Message-Id: <9307262021.AA0526@earth.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <930726092222.20a02952@SBHEP.PHYSICS.UCSB.EDU> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:15:57 EST From: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) X-External-Networks: yes I echo everything Debbie said, and I have something to add. I've seen people scrambling around to correct bad body flow (at best) or incorrect positioning because they fudged a call. "Allemande left" can be followed by a fractional top, an "all eight swing and mix", or some other call that really requires you to have done the allemande. Then there's the letdown of "RLG... on the third hand, promenade home" when some of the "dancers" decide that because they didn't get their partners for the RLG, the caller screwed up and they'll just grab their partners, disrupt the whole ending, and go home. Best, think I, that they just STAY home in the first place. Grumble, grumble. Yes... I rejoice in the RLG and get quite offended when people refuse to do it. (Excuses for physical disabilities are acceptable. Laziness, or "I'm at too high a level to do RLG." is not.) Barry Leiba leiba@watson.ibm.com From @mintaka.lcs.mit.edu,@alpha.xerox.com:John_D._Sybalsky.MV@envos.xerox.com Mon Jul 26 13:33:01 1993 Return-Path: <@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu,@alpha.xerox.com:John_D._Sybalsky.MV@envos.xerox.com> Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA08060; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:33:01 EDT Received: from MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id ab00350; 26 Jul 93 13:19 EDT Received: from alpha.Xerox.COM by mintaka.lcs.mit.edu id aa00429; 26 Jul 93 12:57 EDT Received: from Acacia.OSBU_North.Xerox.xns by alpha.xerox.com via XNS id <11696>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 09:54:41 PDT X-Ns-Transport-Id: 0000AA002550E9013013 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 09:37:00 PDT Posted-Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:54:01 PDT From: John_D._Sybalsky.MV@envos.xerox.com Subject: Re: MWSD is over 29 years old In-Reply-To: "charleen@wiretap.spies:com:Xerox's message of 26 Jul 93 08:17 PDT" To: charleen@wiretap.spies.com Cc: rfrench@cs.stanford.edu, stephenph@aol.com, square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Message-Id: <93Jul26.095441pdt.11696@alpha.xerox.com> Charleen sez: > ...but MWSD as we know it isn't even as old as I am. (It's > probably not even as old as Sybalsky.) Nay, not so. Modern Western Square Dancing dates from approximately the late 40's--tho' granted it has undergone significant changes since the early days, and was evolving quite rapidly throughout the 50's. I'm afraid, Charleen, that .. it's older than you are (something, at last!). --John From @xenon.stanford.edu:yduj@cs.stanford.edu Mon Jul 26 13:48:08 1993 Return-Path: <@xenon.stanford.edu:yduj@cs.stanford.edu> Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA09386; Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:48:08 EDT Received: from Xenon.Stanford.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa00513; 26 Jul 93 13:47 EDT Received: by Xenon.Stanford.EDU (5.61+IDA/25-CS-eef) id AA16097; Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:46:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:46:59 -0700 From: Judy Anderson Message-Id: <9307261746.AA16097@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> To: DLA@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: "Debbie L. Ceder"'s message of Mon, 26 Jul 1993 9:22:22 -0700 (PDT) <930726092222.20a02952@SBHEP.PHYSICS.UCSB.EDU> Subject: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) Personally I find the left allemande and right and left grand to be some of the most fun calls (second only to relay the shadow :-) because you get to whoop and holler (my sole goal in life). In my experience, Plus and C4 are the most fun levels to dance, because people actually do the RLG and LA with gusto; in those in-between levels is where I see the most shortcutting of those calls---C2 and C3A seem to be the worst offenders. I don't find the pattycake done as a high-5 much, it's much more of a soft pat "ok, it's over go away now" feel. When it's done with gusto I don't mind. It's just the dead fish feel that bothers me. Promenade I don't care as much about. But there's always the view of promenade as a victory lap :-) Judy Anderson yclept yduJ yduJ@cs.stanford.edu 'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge' Join the League for Programming Freedom, lpf@uunet.uu.net From charleen@wiretap.spies.com Mon Jul 26 14:13:59 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA10173; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:13:59 EDT Received: from wiretap.spies.com by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa00591; 26 Jul 93 14:10 EDT Received: by wiretap.Spies.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26558; Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:10:48 PDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:10:48 PDT From: Charleen Bunjiovianna Message-Id: <9307261810.AA26558@wiretap.Spies.COM> To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) > Take the pattycake allemande left that Barry Leiba gets upset about. > A allemande left in a Challenge sequence is almost always an unspoken > "Okay, you can relax now, you've done this sequence successfully", I think you'd find a number of well-respected Challenge people who would adamently disagree with that statement. Well, I guess you'll all have to forgive me for saying something that "well-respected Challenge people" might disagree with. I quite forgot my place there for a moment. Charleen From dave@it.larc.nasa.gov Mon Jul 26 14:18:48 1993 Return-Path: Received: from express.larc.nasa.gov by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA10360; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:18:48 EDT Received: from it.larc.nasa.gov by express.larc.nasa.gov with SMTP id BA20306 (SMTP/Lite-1.15) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:18:44 -0400 Received: by it.larc.nasa.gov (4.1/server2.4) id AA06284; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:20:16 EDT Message-Id: <9307261820.AA06284@it.larc.nasa.gov> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:20:16 EDT From: Dave Hinde To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) > Personally I find the left allemande and right and left grand to be > some of the most fun calls (second only to relay the shadow :-) > because you get to whoop and holler (my sole goal in life). In my Good reason for LA and R&LGrand! From a plus dancer's viewpoint, the clubs that do more whooping and hollering, are the most fun to dance with. The other clubs, that say a quick thank you and sit down, are boring, IMHO. In this area the clubs with the most "whooping and hollering" are successful, the others are struggling. > experience, Plus and C4 are the most fun levels to dance, because > people actually do the RLG and LA with gusto; in those in-between > levels is where I see the most shortcutting of those calls---C2 and > C3A seem to be the worst offenders. I don't find the pattycake done > as a high-5 much, it's much more of a soft pat "ok, it's over go away > now" feel. When it's done with gusto I don't mind. It's just the > dead fish feel that bothers me. One of the reasons I don't dance with the local "A" club is the "patty-cake" Left Allemande. I refuse to do it and usually get icy stares if I try to do the move correctly. If a majority of the A or C dancers do not like to do "LA", then create a new call that basically says "square your set". In place of a new call, the caller should just say "square your set" if that's what he/she wants, and LA if that's what he/she wants. Doing a pattycake in place of LA is a form of anticipation. The dancers are assuming the caller wanted them to square up at home, and that the figure is complete. We all know what happens when we anticipate and assume ;-) > > Promenade I don't care as much about. But there's always the view of > promenade as a victory lap :-) The promenade is needed to get you back to your home position, if you're not already there. If you're already home, then LA and promenade would be more of a victory lap, unless it was interupted halfway through (heads wheel around, etc.). ___/,@___ Dave Hinde, SSDUSA /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov From DLA@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu Mon Jul 26 15:00:30 1993 Return-Path: Received: from SBHEP.PHYSICS.UCSB.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA12514; Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:00:30 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) From: DLA@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu (Debbie L. Ceder) Message-Id: <930726120112.20a02952@SBHEP.PHYSICS.UCSB.EDU> Subject: My apologies To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"square-dancing@ai.mit.edu" I've sent the following message to Charleen directly, but in case there are others out there seething silently, I am forwarding this to the whole list. > I've obviously offended you, and I certainly did not mean to do that. I > apologize for making it sound like you (or anyone else who didn't like LA > or RLG) were not well-respected Challenge dancers. In fact, I agreed with > everything in your message except that point, which is why I brought it up, > but I obviously didn't do enough to protect you and your position. +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Debbie L. Ceder Telephone: (805) 893-2058 | | High Energy Physics secretary TeleFAX: (805) 893-8597 | | Physics Department Internet: dla@sbhep.physics.ucsb.edu | | University of California Bitnet: dla@sbhep.bitnet | | Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9530 HEPnet: 45181::dla | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From fwebb@bbn.com Mon Jul 26 16:36:27 1993 Return-Path: Received: from FRED.BBN.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA17764; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:36:27 EDT Message-Id: <9307262036.AA17764@life.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:29:11 EDT From: Fred Webb To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Age of "MWSD" Organization: BBN Systems and Technology charleen@wiretap.spies.com: > ...but MWSD as we know it isn't even as old as I am. (It's > probably not even as old as Sybalsky.) John_D._Sybalsky.MV@envos.xerox.com: >Nay, not so. Modern Western Square Dancing dates from approximately the late >40's--tho' granted it has undergone significant changes since the early days, >and was evolving quite rapidly throughout the 50's. I was dancing MWSD in 1958, at age 15, and my (then future) wife's parents had (at that time) been involved in MWSD for almost 15 years. This was all in New England, which probably wasn't the first region of the country to pick up the activity. That puts it sometime in the early 40's, or earlier. The real question here is precisely where in the evolution of Square Dancing you decide to call it "Modern Western Square Dancing". Since the changes have been gradual, I think it's going to be very hard to make a decision that everyone would agree with. However, what I can say from personal experience is that what I did in 1958 was recognizably the same as today's MWSD, even though there have been many changes since then. I believe that my wife's parents would agree that between when they started and 1958 there had been many changes, but nothing fundamental. -- Fred From kgodfrey@bbn.com Mon Jul 26 16:46:15 1993 Return-Path: Received: from PROPHET.BBN.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA18112; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:46:15 EDT Message-Id: <9307262046.AA18112@life.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:40:19 EDT From: Kathy Godfrey To: Dave Hinde Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) The first time I called at the non-staff dance at National Challenge a friend of mine relayed comments from the dancers in the A2 hall that my material had "too many right and left grand getouts." Subsequently, I've avoided them in my Advanced (and C1) material. Personally, I like RLG, but vox populi....If the customers want LA (from 8 chain, of course!) getouts, that's what they should get. [This is veering dangerously close to the "challenge for people who don't want to be challenged" territory, so I'll stop here.] >>Kathy From dave@it.larc.nasa.gov Mon Jul 26 17:04:05 1993 Return-Path: Received: from express.larc.nasa.gov by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA18920; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:04:05 EDT Received: from it.larc.nasa.gov by express.larc.nasa.gov with SMTP id BA26928 (SMTP/Lite-1.15) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:04:00 -0400 Received: by it.larc.nasa.gov (4.1/server2.4) id AA05815; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:05:32 EDT Message-Id: <9307262105.AA05815@it.larc.nasa.gov> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:05:32 EDT From: Dave Hinde To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Age of "MWSD" > I was dancing MWSD in 1958, at age 15, and my (then future) wife's parents had I was wondering if anyone "here" had been dancing longer than me. I started in 1963, close to the same age. I don't know when the term Modern Western came into being, but suspect it's related to the movement in the 30s. Perhaps a legacy member could help enlighten us. Here's a brief summary of what I know about the origons of square dancing and how the "Modern" term fits (or doesn't fit): Square dancing started in the early Colonial times. Aspects of many countries native dances were combined to form the basics of square dancing. Movements came from contras, English lawn dances, French circle dances, the Morris dances, and more. The figures were set to the music that was available at the time. Dances were simple, and varied from region to region. Square dancing progressed slowly 'till the 30s. At that time there was renewed interest in the dance. Since then it has grown and evolved into the dancing we have today. I don't think the term Modern is proper. Square dancing has stayed current with the times, and is constantly evolving. I think it would be more correct to label other forms of square dancing as "origonal" or "classic" or "folk", or some such designation. The preceding is my personal opinions, and may be (usually are) totally wrong. ___/,@___ Dave Hinde, SSDUSA /_o_____o_| dave@monitor.larc.nasa.gov From rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu Mon Jul 26 17:58:18 1993 Return-Path: Received: from Hawg.Stanford.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA21374; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:58:18 EDT Received: by Hawg.Stanford.EDU (5.57/-eef) id AA26880; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:58:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:58:10 -0700 Message-Id: <9307262158.AA26880@Hawg.Stanford.EDU> From: "Robert S. French" Sender: rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Geri Ballou's message of Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:51:39 -0700 <9307261451.ZM6391@fido.rational.com> Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels From: gerib@fido.rational.com (Geri Ballou) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:51:39 -0700 I have noticed a large decline in dancing skills in the San Jose area over the last 4 years. Too many people are attempting to dance beyond their competance level. It has gotten to the point where I have spent the entire evening at an A2 dance in squares breaking down over simple calls from "normal" positioning. This month's Prompter (local WSD mag) contains a lot of ads for Advanced classes for the fall. Pretty much every one of them includes a phrase such as "Mainstream and Plus will be reviewed" or "Plus APD will be taught". I think this is a pretty good indication people are moving up who shouldn't be. IMHO we should enforce minimum competance level for admission to square dance classes. This is already done at some gay clubs. I would hate to think about the kind of politicking (sp?) this would generate if in widespread use, but hey, what's new? I know it's hard to avoid hurt feelings in this kind of situation. Rob From Bill_van_Melle.PARC@xerox.com Mon Jul 26 17:57:43 1993 Return-Path: Received: from alpha.xerox.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA21324; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:57:43 EDT Received: from Dove.Parc.Xerox.xns by alpha.xerox.com via XNS id <11662>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:57:23 PDT X-Ns-Transport-Id: 0000AA006699C8A42FFE Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:56:32 PDT From: Bill_van_Melle.PARC@xerox.com Subject: Re: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) In-Reply-To: "kgodfrey@bbn:com:Xerox's message of Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:40:19 PDT" To: kgodfrey@bbn.com Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <93Jul26.145723pdt.11662@alpha.xerox.com> >my material had "too many right and left grand getouts." Well, if we're going to get into pet peeves about this sort of figure, mine is callers who show utterly no variety in their getouts. If *every* getout is RLG, or *every* one is Allemande Left, it gets a little boring. Even worse, in my book, are callers who use neither of those, but leave you at home. An occasional "You're home", especially if we got there in a clever fashion, is fun. But as a steady diet, especially when you can easily see the caller maneuvering you in that direction time after time, it's incredibly boring. After attending a dance a while back in which 90% of the getouts were "You're home", I was ready to strangle the caller. As you might guess, I agree with the folks who find RLG a welcome release, a (sometimes well-deserved) reward, a sort of victory lap. In another case of overuse, I recall one caller who constantly used "RLG, but on the 3rd hand, promenade home". That's a cute trick *once* in a dance, and obnoxious much more than that--it dramatically saps the RLG of its reward aspect. We asked him about it, and he claimed there were some folks he called to that simply refused to actually do a RLG (at live dances, even!), so this was his counterploy. We suggested he simply write his cards in such a way that people were halfway from home at the RLG, so they'd have to walk that far anyway. Bill From ksr@cykick.jvnc.net Mon Jul 26 18:42:21 1993 Return-Path: Received: from tigger.jvnc.net by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA23116; Mon, 26 Jul 93 18:42:21 EDT Received: from [192.67.236.25] (cykick.jvnc.net) by tigger.jvnc.net with SMTP id AA25839 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu); Mon, 26 Jul 1993 18:42:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199307262242.AA25839@tigger.jvnc.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 18:41:43 -0500 To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: ksr@cykick.jvnc.net (Ken and/or Helena Robinson) X-Sender: cykick@tigger.jvnc.net Subject: Re: Age of "MWSD" Dave Hinde writes (in part): >I don't know when the term Modern Western came into being, but suspect it's >related to the movement in the 30s. Perhaps a legacy member could help >enlighten us. OK, we get the hint! ;-) We just have to unearth the notes from our first LEGACY meeting in '87, which featured folks who had actually danced with Lloyd Shaw himself. First guess puts "origins" at circa 1930s. You might want to see whether your local library still has the Lloyd Shaw book "Cowboy Dances." Now, after catching up with all these messages, it's time to do something about dinner! Not to mention seethe about pattycake LA and advertising reviews of MS/+ in Advanced workshops (egads!). Gee, it's amazing what gets this list going... ;-) Helena (& Ken) Robinson @cykick.jvnc.net From amail.amdahl.com!geri.finkelstein@juts.ccc.amdahl.com Mon Jul 26 18:48:55 1993 Return-Path: Received: from amdahl.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AB23599; Mon, 26 Jul 93 18:48:55 EDT Received: by amdahl.com (/\==/\ Smail #25.32) id ; Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:48 PDT Received: by juts.ccc.amdahl.com (/\../\ Smail3.1.14.4 #14.6) id ; Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:49 PDT Message-Id: Date: Monday, 26 July 1993 3:43pm PT To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: geri.finkelstein@amail.amdahl.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels From: gerib@fido.rational.com (Geri Ballou) > > I have noticed a large decline in dancing skills in the San Jose > area over the last 4 years. Too many people are attempting to > dance beyond their competance level. It has gotten to the point > where I have spent the entire evening at an A2 dance in squares > breaking down over simple calls from "normal" positioning. Rob French replies: > > { deletions } > > IMHO we should enforce minimum competance level for admission > to square dance classes. > > This is already done at some gay clubs. I would hate to think about > the kind of politicking (sp?) this would generate if in widespread > use, but hey, what's new? I know it's hard to avoid hurt feelings in > this kind of situation. > > Rob When I graduated Plus (Spring, 1983--before Quads....), before I was allowed to join the club, I (along with my cohorts) were voted upon by the members of the board (on dance ability--at least that's what I was told!). I remember worrying about being accepted (as not everyone was) and also worried about the fairness of having folks attend a class for nine months and then tell them they weren't ready to dance at the club level, but I do know that dancers in the club were much more accomplished dancers than they appear to be today. The club also sponsored a Plus workshop in the summer, especially focused toward those class dancers who weren't quite ready for club dancing. They were invited to apply again at the end of the workshop (if they had improved to meet the level). The dance-level requirement appears to have been dropped several years back, along with the summer workshop. Some newer club dancers who I've spoken to recently don't feel really ready to tackle Advanced (they'd like to just dance for a while without going to class), but they are doing so because they get bored at 'club' level dances. Apparently the club level has dropped to meet the dancers instead of raising the dancer's level to meet the club! So, the question is -- is WSD preparing dancers to capably dance at a specified level and, if not, is the activity prepared to 'cull' the dancers who don't meet the requirements (which has been shown to raise the floor level)? Geri From @relay1.uu.net:gerib@igor.rational.com Mon Jul 26 18:52:36 1993 Return-Path: <@relay1.uu.net:gerib@igor.rational.com> Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA23728; Mon, 26 Jul 93 18:52:36 EDT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa01906; 26 Jul 93 18:49 EDT Received: from rational.rational.com (via rational.com) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA02494; Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:51:28 -0400 Received: from igor.Rational.COM by rational.rational.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13571; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:52:04 PDT Received: from fido.Rational.COM by igor.Rational.COM (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA12690; Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:51:56 PDT From: Geri Ballou Message-Id: <9307261451.ZM6391@fido.rational.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:51:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: Charleen Bunjiovianna <@fido:charleen@wiretap.spies.com> "Re: Levels, levels, levels" (Jul 26, 8:17am) References: <9307261517.AA23621@wiretap.Spies.COM> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (2.1.0 10/1/92) To: Charleen Bunjiovianna <@fido,@rational.com:charleen@wiretap.spies.com>, rfrench@cs.stanford.edu, stephenph@aol.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu On Jul 26, 8:17am, Charleen Bunjiovianna wrote: (other interesting material deleted) > > Have we gotten so sensitized to charges of elitism that we can't even > consider the cultural differences? And there's a real danger in > thinking of Mainstream/Plus/Advanced/C-* as contiguous activities, and > the indications are that it's getting worse: People attempting to > dance beyond their level of competence because C-4 (or insert > local-highest-WSD-level here) is seen as the ultimate goal, and if you > dance some level "less" than that, obviously you're not among the > best. > > Charleen >-- End of excerpt from Charleen Bunjiovianna Just to pick up a different part of this thread... I have noticed a large decline in dancing skills in the San Jose area over the last 4 years. Too many people are attempting to dance beyond their competance level. It has gotten to the point where I have spent the entire evening at an A2 dance in squares breaking down over simple calls from "normal" positioning. IMHO we should enforce minimum competance level for admission to square dance classes. Obviously, at beginning square dance levels, there is nothing to measure. But no one should be allowed to continue in an Advanced class if they haven't mastered Plus. And that should hold true at every level. This is not being unfriendly, or mean, but practical. In some sense, it is too bad that Advanced and Challenge level classes and dances are advertised. When they were not advertised, dancers moved up levels "by invitation". I would agree that some very good dancers probably never found out about the higher levels, but the quality of dancing was much better at Advanced and higher. Geri -- Geri Ballou (gerib@rational.com) I have only myself to thank for my opinions :-) From asente@mv.us.adobe.com Mon Jul 26 19:11:20 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA24322; Mon, 26 Jul 93 19:11:20 EDT Received: by mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA11854; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:11:13 -0700 Received: by baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA22937; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:11:13 -0700 Message-Id: <9307262311.AA22937@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> To: "Robert S. French" Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu, asente@mv.us.adobe.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:58:10 PDT." <9307262158.AA26880@Hawg.Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:11:12 -0700 From: asente@mv.us.adobe.com X-Mts: smtp > IMHO we should enforce minimum competance level for admission > to square dance classes. > >This is already done at some gay clubs. Only one that I know about, and I don't know of many folks who approve of the idea. (Lest anyone think this is common in the gay square dance world!) >I would hate to think about >the kind of politicking (sp?) this would generate if in widespread >use, but hey, what's new? I know it's hard to avoid hurt feelings in >this kind of situation. Yeah. I think that it's primarily the teachers who have to take the responsibility to not "dumb-down" their classes to accomodate people who aren't ready for the level. Of course, the teachers usually get paid more when there are more people in the class, so they're not really motivated to weed people out. Dilemma. Note that I'm not saying that teachers shouldn't accomodate their students when teaching new material. Many people just need a little extra time to learn but are fine dancers once they do. But I don't think teachers should accomodate people who don't know the previous level well. -paul From asente@mv.us.adobe.com Mon Jul 26 19:40:50 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA25779; Mon, 26 Jul 93 19:40:50 EDT Received: by mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA11957; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:40:45 -0700 Received: by baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA23002; Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:40:42 -0700 Message-Id: <9307262340.AA23002@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:11:12 PDT." <9307262311.AA22937@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:40:41 -0700 From: asente@mv.us.adobe.com X-Mts: smtp Bleh, my previous message came out very confused. What I meant to say was that I think there is a big difference between "not graduating" class members, especially at Basic/MS/Plus, and not teaching people another level when they cannot dance the previous one very well. I think the first is elitist and damaging to the activity as a whole, while the second would be beneficial to the activity if anyone actually did it. -paul From ZipperBear@forsythe.stanford.edu Mon Jul 26 20:17:01 1993 Return-Path: Received: from Forsythe.Stanford.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA26805; Mon, 26 Jul 93 20:17:01 EDT Message-Id: <9307270017.AA26805@life.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 17:16:51 PDT To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: "Stewart Kramer" Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels REPLY TO 07/26/93 16:56 FROM asente@mv.us.adobe.com: Re: Levels, levels, levels I wonder, though, where people are going learn to dance well, if the only dancing available is "vanilla" dancing. I think the problem is that many areas (like our area) have no viable Mainstream dancing. In order to teach Plus to the average or below-average beginner, it becomes tempting to water down the level, to keep the bulk of the dancers entertained. This may bore the faster learners, but it keeps the clubs alive. Unfortunately for the higher levels, it may drive away the fast learners, who are the ones who are interested in Advanced and Challenge dancing. But even the fast learners can't be expected to learn what they haven't been exposed to. The people who can learn to dance from a book are few and far between. Everyone else has to learn in a class or workshop. In areas of the country with a solid Mainstream program, beginners may learn APD, and then go on to Plus, still dancing APD. Here, however, they learn vanilla Mainstream and Plus at the same time, and are never exposed to APD, so Advanced classes must begin with an APD review. This may not be the ideal situation, but it is a reasonable solution. Maybe it's time to resurrect "hot hash" tips (i.e., designated tips that are hard, fast, non-vanilla, but still the advertised floor level.) --- Stewart Kramer To: SQUARE-DANCING@AI.MIT.EDU From news@news.ysu.edu Mon Jul 26 21:47:33 1993 Return-Path: Received: from news.ysu.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA00359; Mon, 26 Jul 93 21:47:33 EDT Received: by news.ysu.edu id AA04645 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:05:40 -0400 Received: from GATEWAY by news.ysu.edu with netnews for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu (square-dancing@ai.mit.edu) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Date: 27 Jul 1993 01:05:34 GMT From: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) Message-Id: <231v0u$4h4@news.ysu.edu> Organization: Youngstown State University Sender: news@news.ysu.edu References: <9307262158.AA26880@Hawg.Stanford.EDU>, <9307262311.AA22937@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In article <9307262311.AA22937@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com>, Paul Asente (asente@mv.us.adobe.com) wrote: [others, attributions lost, wrote...] : > IMHO we should enforce minimum competance level for admission : > to square dance classes. : > : >This is already done at some gay clubs. : Only one that I know about, and I don't know of many folks who approve : of the idea. (Lest anyone think this is common in the gay square dance : world!) Speaking as a member of CCCD, a (the?) gay club that "tests out" to move on to higher levels: It came to a head this past spring, because people that were told they weren't ready to move on to a higher level insisted they could handle it, and so were "graduated" into plus. It was so bad they ended up holding a test-out on basic and MS material and four or five people were 'demoted' to the MS class. There were hurt feelings and wounded pride, but they were told not to move on... but somehow because they "graduated" they felt the leaders approved their dancing after all, and then went and changed the rules again. Shortly after this, two of our leaders left and started their own dance classes. We're not sure what's going to come of this in the long run, but there's been a bit of friction and nastiness exchanged at times. Between people that left to go with these leaders, and people that were upset over the situation and stopped dancing, we had a "noticable" drop in class participation. We made changes to our teaching program (extending it by a month and hiring a professional teacher/caller, and providing opportunities to improve our own amateur callers). We also moved to a larger location with less background noise... this helped a lot. At the end of the last class session, we held test-outs for all levels where students wanted to move up. The entire MS class moved up, and all but two of the basic class moved up. None of the plus students were interested in moving on to A1 so we didn't hold test-outs for them - they're re-taking the current plus class again on class nights. Most people realized it wasn't such a big deal, and that even if they made a mistake or two, they could still graduate. (Incidentally, the MS test-out was Nickey Zimmerman's "Columbus Stockade Blues" patter and a moderately difficult singing call, the Plus test-out piece would have been Mike Dabling's "Standing Room Only" patter and a singing call. These are NOT easy pieces). In the long run we'll have better dancers. It's been painful at times. This works for us in part because we start all levels every four months, so one doesn't have to repeat a whole year in order to make the grade. [....] : Note that I'm not saying that teachers shouldn't accomodate their : students when teaching new material. Many people just need a little : extra time to learn but are fine dancers once they do. But I don't : think teachers should accomodate people who don't know the previous : level well. If something's looked shaky we've taken a bit of time to go back over it, but fortunately at this point most people have a general idea of what's going on. Interesting enough, the attrition rate has been about the same as in the two "straight" clubs I also dance with. We hope to stem that rate in CCCD, the other two clubs are among the most successful of the local clubs, membership and graduate-wise, so I don't know if they feel they need to change. I'd suspect the caller would like to take the classes slower, but he has to do what he's hired to do (he makes up by holding summer workshops that people are "encouraged" to attend). Doug -- Doug Sewell, Tech Support, Computer Center, Youngstown State University doug@cc.ysu.edu doug@ysub.bitnet !cc.ysu.edu!doug Geek (ca. 1942): a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake - Websters. From leiba@watson.ibm.com Tue Jul 27 08:50:12 1993 Received: from watson.ibm.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA14726; Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:50:12 EDT Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1575; Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:50:14 EDT Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 8940; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:50:04 EDT Received: from earth.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:50:03 EDT Return-Path: Received: by earth.watson.ibm.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 1.2.10/) id AA0096; Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:50:09 -0700 Message-Id: <9307271550.AA0096@earth.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <93Jul26.145723pdt.11662@alpha.xerox.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:38:08 EST From: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) X-External-Networks: yes > callers who show utterly no variety in their getouts. If *every* getout is > RLG, or *every* one is Allemande Left, it gets a little boring. I'm reminded of a caller whom I'll not name, to whom I otherwise enjoy dancing. He consistently (50% of the time or more) ends his hash thus: Four ladies chain Allemande left Weave by two Some of us have given the sequence a name: "The Billy". One of the best getouts I've seen was done (once) by Todd Fellegy at a C2 dance: Scoot and plenty, but interrupt before the circulates and finish later. It's later. Centers explode and... you're home. Barry Leiba leiba@watson.ibm.com From @mwunix.mitre.org:gary@maestro.mitre.org Tue Jul 27 09:34:22 1993 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA16177; Tue, 27 Jul 93 09:34:22 EDT Received: from mwunix.mitre.org by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa05359; 27 Jul 93 9:33 EDT Return-Path: Received: from maestro.mitre.org by mwunix.mitre.org (5.65c/SMI-2.2) id AA17917; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 09:06:00 -0400 Received: from sackbut.mitre.org by maestro.mitre.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13973; Tue, 27 Jul 93 09:06:00 EDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 09:06:00 EDT From: Gary Bisaga Message-Id: <9307271306.AA13973@maestro.mitre.org> Received: by sackbut.mitre.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05879; Tue, 27 Jul 93 09:05:59 EDT To: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" Cc: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu, stephenph@aol.com Subject: Re: Stacking calls (was "Levels, levels, levels") References: <9307251446.tn24559@aol.com> <9307261505.AA0491@earth.watson.ibm.com> ==== Barry Leiba said ==== barry> A sequence of those calls usually works well *only* when the barry> caller stacks them. For that matter, square dance calls in barry> general only work when they're stacked - that is, when you have barry> the next call before you've finished the previous one... Ah, but you're referrinng to "prompting," not "stacking." As in: intro 8-beat phrase: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 sq- 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 swng- b. run 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... Here the "swing thru" is prompted on the last two beats of the square thru movement, the "boys run" is prompted on the last two beats of the swing thru, etc. An equivalent stack might be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 sq- 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 swng- b. run 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... where the swing thru and b. run commands are both given during the initial swing thru. Folks like Decko Deck, Walt Cole, and many others involved in contras try to drill the former into caller's heads, but the latter only for "gimmick" usage. Gary From kdo@marie.mit.edu Tue Jul 27 11:54:44 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA21857; Tue, 27 Jul 93 11:54:44 EDT Received: from MARIE.MIT.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa05756; 27 Jul 93 11:46 EDT Received: by marie.mit.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA21481; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 11:47:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 11:47:43 -0400 From: Ken Olum Message-Id: <9307271547.AA21481@marie.mit.edu> To: square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <9307261517.AA23621@wiretap.Spies.COM> (message from Charleen Bunjiovianna on Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:17:16 PDT) Subject: Challenge dancing as a separate activity Charleen, I'm interested in your idea of having Challenge square dancing be a separate activity. I certainly agree that C-4 is a very different activity from Mainstream. Suppose a person has been dancing at a Mainstream club for a while, and then decides to learn challenge and no longer dances Mainstream. People in the club will say he "went on" to challenge dancing. But if instead he becomes a folk dancer and drops of the club they'll say he "gave up square dancing" and took up folk instead. In the former case, some people will be envious, or feel that this dancer is a snob who doesn't deign to come to their club, even if they themselves wouldn't like challenge dancing. But in the latter case they'll just say "oh, well, I guess he liked folk dancing more than squares." I think people who dance contras or New England squares feel that Western squares are a different (and somewhat weird) activity that some people prefer and some don't. But one could certainly argue that New England squares and Western squares are much more alike than Mainstream and C4. But if you were to try to redefine Challenge Western Squares as a different style instead of a different level, would you have beginner's classes? Would you treat beginners differently if they already had Mainstream experience? Betsy and Chuck Berry had such a class at one point, calling it C0. The idea was that there were lots of people who would like Challenge dancing, but who would not like Mainstream, and would never learn challenge if they had to do it by learning Mainstream first. I'm not sure that this is a good idea -- my experience at challenge dances is that the most fun people to dance with are those who do like mainstream dancing, because they like the dancing part of dancing instead of just the intellectual challenge. I wouldn't want to encourage a new group of challenge dancers who said "oh, I don't really like to *dance* -- I just like to solve puzzles." Ken From billw@cisco.com Tue Jul 27 13:27:25 1993 Return-Path: Received: from glare.cisco.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA26136; Tue, 27 Jul 93 13:27:25 EDT Received: by glare.cisco.com id AA16522 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu); Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:26:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 10:26:51 PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield To: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 27 Jul 93 08:38:08 EST Subject: get-outs Message-Id: I really like John's "Do a triple grand chain eight, you're home", but I certainly wouldn't want to have it happen very often. The best get-outs are the ones that you can't see coming... BillW From asente@mv.us.adobe.com Tue Jul 27 16:58:36 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA06207; Tue, 27 Jul 93 16:58:36 EDT Received: by mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA15567; Tue, 27 Jul 93 13:58:27 -0700 Received: by baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA24025; Tue, 27 Jul 93 13:58:25 -0700 Message-Id: <9307272058.AA24025@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> To: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu, asente@mv.us.adobe.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In-Reply-To: Your message of "27 Jul 93 01:05:34 GMT." <231v0u$4h4@news.ysu.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 13:58:25 -0700 From: asente@mv.us.adobe.com X-Mts: smtp [Stuff deleted about testing out of Basic and MS.] I guess it's largely a matter of whether you view Basic as a real level or as a name for a subset of the Mainstream program, useful for designating certain beginner dances. I view it as more of the latter, so having a test-out after Basic seems really really strange to me. After going through Basic class 4 times (number 5 coming up) and watching quite a few folks pass through, I think that having people not successfully complete Basic is more a reflection on the teaching than on the students. This shouldn't be taken as a slam on CCCD -- I know you do the best you can given your constraints, and teaching beginners with tapes ain't easy. But I think that if there are folks who haven't quite gotten it at the end of Basic instruction that what is required is some brush-up and private help, not being flushed. -paul From news@news.ysu.edu Tue Jul 27 17:47:59 1993 Return-Path: Received: from news.ysu.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA08230; Tue, 27 Jul 93 17:47:59 EDT Received: by news.ysu.edu id AA28887 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Tue, 27 Jul 1993 17:26:10 -0400 Received: from GATEWAY by news.ysu.edu with netnews for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu (square-dancing@ai.mit.edu) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Date: 27 Jul 1993 21:26:04 GMT From: doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) Message-Id: <2346hc$s6m@news.ysu.edu> Organization: Youngstown State University Sender: news@news.ysu.edu References: <231v0u$4h4@news.ysu.edu>, <9307272058.AA24025@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In article <9307272058.AA24025@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com>, asente@mv.us.adobe.com wrote: : I guess it's largely a matter of whether you view Basic as a real level : or as a name for a subset of the Mainstream program, useful for : designating certain beginner dances. I view it as more of the latter, : so having a test-out after Basic seems really really strange to me. Part of it is the history of our club - as I understand it, for several years we were REALLY disorganized and didn't have any formal plan of attack for going through the levels - I was told of practically starting over each time a new face showed up and looked like they'd stick around. Once we did get to a regular program, it worked best to create three (now five) programs that all run the same calendar length, with provisions for adjustment if needed. We've also had the (wonderful) problem of all-the-sudden having BIG classes rather than small ones. People weren't getting the attention they needed at times. : After going through Basic class 4 times (number 5 coming up) and : watching quite a few folks pass through, I think that having people not : successfully complete Basic is more a reflection on the teaching than : on the students. This shouldn't be taken as a slam on CCCD -- I know : you do the best you can given your constraints, and teaching beginners : with tapes ain't easy. But I think that if there are folks who haven't : quite gotten it at the end of Basic instruction that what is required : is some brush-up and private help, not being flushed. We had some teacher problems in our history, that's why we've hired someone that calls/teaches square dancing for a living to take over teaching the basic classes, and also he and/or his wife are working with the MS and Plus classes too. We're still trying to make everything work together, and I'm sure there are still things that need tweaked, but we're making progress. I'd imagine that there are other clubs that would LOVE to have our growth problem (-: -- Doug Sewell, Tech Support, Computer Center, Youngstown State University doug@cc.ysu.edu doug@ysub.bitnet !cc.ysu.edu!doug Geek (ca. 1942): a carnival performer often billed as a wild man whose act usu. includes biting the head off a live chicken or snake - Websters. From ksr@cykick.jvnc.net Tue Jul 27 18:51:57 1993 Return-Path: Received: from tigger.jvnc.net by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA10783; Tue, 27 Jul 93 18:51:57 EDT Received: from [192.67.236.25] (cykick.jvnc.net) by tigger.jvnc.net with SMTP id AA27108 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for square-dancing@ai.mit.edu); Tue, 27 Jul 1993 18:51:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199307272251.AA27108@tigger.jvnc.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 18:50:43 -0500 To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: ksr@cykick.jvnc.net (Ken and/or Helena Robinson) X-Sender: cykick@tigger.jvnc.net Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels Paul Asente writes... >[Stuff deleted about testing out of Basic and MS.] > >I guess it's largely a matter of whether you view Basic as a real level >or as a name for a subset of the Mainstream program, useful for >designating certain beginner dances. I view it as more of the latter, >so having a test-out after Basic seems really really strange to me. Well...once upon a time, Basic was indeed considered a "real" level: an official hall at the National Convention, even Basic clubs. As a matter of fact, when we were Association officers, we were asked to make an official visit to a Basics club that was applying for membership. We had a great time, the choreography was hardly anything to sleep through, and the caller certainly knew what the floor could handle (how about teaching the call - then a quarterly - scoot and relocate without uttering the words "scoot back?"). In our report recommending the club for membership, we encouraged clubs to have their classes raid. Alas, the group eventually raised the program to MS to attract more dancers (there are 3 other MS clubs in the area, so there is a supply of dancers to draw from). As for beginner dances - or class-level (half-way, 3/4-way, whatever your area calls 'em) - more often than not, callers that participate (most often class instructors) are asked to mark up a Callerlab list with the calls they have taught to that point. The lowest common denominator is generally used as "floor level." Not being a caller, this is pure guessing on my part - we'll let the callers on this list affirm or dispute this! However, the term "Basic" is not used - at least around here. >After going through Basic class 4 times (number 5 coming up) and >watching quite a few folks pass through, I think that having people not >successfully complete Basic is more a reflection on the teaching than >on the students. ...But I think that if there are folks who haven't >quite gotten it at the end of Basic instruction that what is required >is some brush-up and private help, not being flushed. Let's see how well telepathy works... ;-) I have a feeling Ken would beg to differ. Several years ago, he angeled a beginner class given at the local adult school (I was taking a sewing class at the same time, but usually arrived for the last tip). There was one couple in particular (there may have been two) who STILL couldn't handle "pass thru, separate, around one, into the middle" by Thanksgiving (class began late Sept./early Oct.). As a matter of fact, Ken now tells me (he just walked in), they couldn't do a pass thru. The caller was a competent teacher and VERY patient - he would take each partner by the hand individually thru the above sequence - but he finally asked the couple to leave in December. Yes, this was holding the class back badly - and they caught up quickly after the couple departed. Helena (& Ken) Robinson @cykick.jvnc.net From stone.com!kris@stone.com Wed Jul 28 01:44:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mimbres.cs.unm.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA23738; Wed, 28 Jul 93 01:44:49 EDT Received: from stone.com by mimbres.cs.unm.edu (5.65/033093) with UUCP id ; Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:29:01 -0600 Received: by stone.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1(Shaman-Stone-Mods)) id AA19903; Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:18:50 MDT Received: by twostep.stone.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0(Stone-mods)) id AA11353; Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:11:47 MDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:11:47 MDT From: kris@stone.com (Kristin Jensen) Message-Id: <9307280511.AA11353@ twostep.stone.com > Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels The Robinsons write: >Alas, the group eventually raised the >program to MS to attract more dancers (there are 3 other MS clubs in the >area, so there is a supply of dancers to draw from) This shows what I think is one of square dancing's big problems...people at higher levels seem to be unwilling to dance at lower levels. Yes, they'll angel classes, but just go to a Basic dance just for the fun of it? Presumably all the MS club members could dance Basic, so there's no reason why they couldn't go to a Basic club's dances. It seems that straight groups rarely have mixed level dances. Clubs are all single-level. So if a person wants to learn another level, she has to join another club...thereby leaving all the folks who may not want to advance. In folk dancing, people don't expect to dance every dance...some they know and some they don't. It's okay to have hard dances that only a few can do mixed with easy dances that anyone can do. People who are just starting out only expect to do a couple of dances during the night, but they can hang around and get to know people and start to feel like part of the group. Experts dance the easy dances as well as the challenging ones. I know that square dancing is different. But one of the major criticisms of square dancing right now is that classes take too long. Maybe the class length wouldn't bother prospective square dancers so much if the class members were integrated into the club from the beginning, with a couple of class level tips thrown into the general dancing so the class would have an incentive to come to club dances. This would require club members being willing to dance at a non-maximum level and class members being willing to not dance every dance. Folk dancers do it. Contra and traditional square dancers do it. Some gay square dance clubs do it. Maybe it would help square dance clubs attract new dancers. From cstacy@ai.mit.edu Wed Jul 28 02:22:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: from corn-pops (corn-pops.ai.mit.edu) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA24611; Wed, 28 Jul 93 02:22:49 EDT From: cstacy@ai.mit.edu (Christopher C. Stacy) Received: by corn-pops (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00754; Wed, 28 Jul 93 02:22:48 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 02:22:48 EDT Message-Id: <9307280622.AA00754@corn-pops> To: kris@stone.com Cc: square-dancing In-Reply-To: <9307280511.AA11353@ twostep.stone.com > (kris@stone.com) Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:11:47 MDT From: kris@stone.com (Kristin Jensen) But one of the major criticisms of square dancing right now is that classes take too long. Maybe the class length wouldn't bother prospective square dancers so much if the class members were integrated into the club from the beginning, with a couple of class level tips thrown into the general dancing so the class would have an incentive to come to club dances. Tech Squares dances one night each week, and it's a workshop: all the tips are the lessons for people in the class, except that the 1st, middle, and last tip are for folks who have completed the course (Plus level). The course runs about 12 weeks long, and is offered twice each year. During the summer there are no lessons, and it's all Plus level. We also have a dance about every other month (with an outside caller), but there are no beginner tips at those dances (although there is often an *A1 tip at the end of the night). So, the beginners actually get to dance more than the graduates. I have not said anything about "how well it works", since I don't think you can isolate the format from many other factors, but I thought you might think it was an interesting approach. From leiba@watson.ibm.com Wed Jul 28 08:26:17 1993 Received: from watson.ibm.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA00637; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:17 EDT Received: from WATSON by watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2451; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:19 EDT Received: from YKTVMH by watson.vnet.ibm.com with "VAGENT.V1.0" id 3679; Wed, 28 Jul 1993 08:26:09 EDT Received: from earth.watson.ibm.com by yktvmh.watson.ibm.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:09 EDT Return-Path: Received: by earth.watson.ibm.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 1.2.10/) id AA0491; Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:26:12 -0700 Message-Id: <9307281526.AA0491@earth.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <9307280511.AA11353@ twostep.stone.com > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:17:20 EST From: "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications" To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Levels, levels, levels X-External-Networks: yes Kris Stone says: > This shows what I think is one of square dancing's big > problems...people at higher levels seem to be unwilling to dance at > lower levels. > Folk dancers do it. Contra and traditional square dancers do > it. Some gay square dance clubs do it. Maybe it would help square > dance clubs attract new dancers. Yes, but look at the examples you give. They're all high-energy groups, in general, and the energy level makes up for the mental challenge. Most of the straight square dance clubs in this area have an average dancer age between 50 and 60, with a good number of dancers in their 60s and 70s. Not unrelated to that, the energy level tends to be very, very low. Not surprisingly, I don't go to straight MS dances around here, and I got to few straight Plus dances (I do vigorously support Single Funtimers, a straight Plus club, which has a bit more energy than most here). On the other hand, I'm always thrilled to attend Times Squares MS and Plus dances, because the enery level is so high that I don't notice that the program level isn't high (I dance through C2). I also dance contras when I can get to them, and I like them for the same reason - high energy. But it's hard to enjoy a MS dance when the caller has to turn the speed down to 40 and people look at me funny when I kick & whoop on the 1st and 3rd hands of RLG. Barry Leiba leiba@watson.ibm.com From stone.com!kris@stone.com Wed Jul 28 12:42:54 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mimbres.cs.unm.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA11308; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:42:54 EDT Received: from stone.com by mimbres.cs.unm.edu (5.65/033093) with UUCP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:14:04 -0600 Received: by stone.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1(Shaman-Stone-Mods)) id AA22252; Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:01:07 MDT Received: by twostep.stone.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0(Stone-mods)) id AA11621; Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:28:20 MDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:28:20 MDT From: kris@stone.com (Kristin Jensen) Message-Id: <9307281528.AA11621@ twostep.stone.com > Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Energy levels Barry says (in response to a note where I compared folk dancing and square dancing): >Yes, but look at the examples you give. They're all high-energy groups, in >general, and the energy level makes up for the mental challenge. Most of >the straight square dance clubs in this area have an average dancer age >between 50 and 60, with a good number of dancers in their 60s and 70s. Not >unrelated to that, the energy level tends to be very, very low. Not >surprisingly, I don't go to straight MS dances around here, and I got to few >straight Plus dances I know. I keep trying to think of ways to reverse the downward trend in straight square dancing. Sometimes I think it should just stay an older person's activity, and maybe all the baby boomers will take it up when they retire. Other times I think gay or young square dance missionaries should go out and start straight clubs "from scratch", which wouldn't have to face the problem of trying to attract younger people to dance with an older crowd. Other times I think that square dancing will never have the appeal it once did because times and social conditions have changed. Bridge (the card game) used to be very popular; now it appeals to a much smaller group. Ditto square dancing. But then I worry that, because of its image, square dancing can't even attract the people who would really like it. I sometimes wonder how many people who do contras and traditional squares might like the *activity* of square dancing (with its unique unpredictability) but don't like the *culture* associated with WSD. I really enjoy hearing people's opinions about these things. Out here in Albuquerque, the square dancers are very conservative. All clubs want proper square dance attire. All clubs seem to be declining in membership. Several clubs have folded in the last couple of years. Most clubs have a hard time attracting new class members. So square dancing seems in sad shape here, and it's nice to hear from other places where the energy is high and the dancing's fun. From FINGER@ctpsun.ciw.edu Wed Jul 28 12:50:39 1993 Return-Path: Received: from GEOLAB.CIW.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA11685; Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:50:39 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 11:40:19 -0400 (EDT) From: FINGER@ctpsun.ciw.edu Message-Id: <930728114019.182e@gl.ciw.edu> Subject: RE: Levels, levels, levels To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"square-dancing@ai.mit.edu" Barry Leiba writes: >Kris Stone says: >> This shows what I think is one of square dancing's big >> problems...people at higher levels seem to be unwilling to dance at >> lower levels. > >Yes, but look at the examples you give. They're all high-energy groups, in >general, and the energy level makes up for the mental challenge. Most of >the straight square dance clubs in this area have an average dancer age >between 50 and 60, with a good number of dancers in their 60s and 70s. Not >unrelated to that, the energy level tends to be very, very low. Not >surprisingly, I don't go to straight MS dances around here, and I got to few >straight Plus dances (I do vigorously support Single Funtimers, a straight >Plus club, which has a bit more energy than most here). On the other hand, >I'm always thrilled to attend Times Squares MS and Plus dances, because the >enery level is so high that I don't notice that the program level isn't high >(I dance through C2). I also dance contras when I can get to them, and I >like them for the same reason - high energy. But it's hard to enjoy a MS >dance when the caller has to turn the speed down to 40 and people look at me >funny when I kick & whoop on the 1st and 3rd hands of RLG. There is another reason for not dancing lower levels. My wife has problems with her neck that are agravated if her arms are raised. She's the one on the A2 and C1 floors with the large sign that says "Please do not Raise my Arms". At Advanced and above, the sign works and she can continue to dance, in spite of the suggestions to the contrary offered by her physician. The last time we danced Plus, several of the well-intentioned, but over-enthusiastic, dancers caused severe problems and she had to lay off for roughly 3 months. As to the level, we enjoy unusual choreography on any floor and dislike routine, "standard", positioning, no matter which level is being called. Larry W. Finger I work to live, but I live to DANCE! From asente@mv.us.adobe.com Wed Jul 28 17:44:43 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA25572; Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:44:43 EDT Received: by mail-relay-2.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA20303; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:36 -0700 Received: by baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com; id AA24893; Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:34 -0700 Message-Id: <9307282144.AA24893@baskerville.mv.us.adobe.com> To: kris@stone.com (Kristin Jensen) Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu, asente@mv.us.adobe.com Subject: Re: Levels, levels, levels In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:11:47 MDT." <9307280511.AA11353@ twostep.stone.com > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:44:33 -0700 From: asente@mv.us.adobe.com X-Mts: smtp >This shows what I think is one of square dancing's big >problems...people at higher levels seem to be unwilling to dance at >lower levels. I'd like to make an open invitation to anyone who is ever in the San Francisco Bay area to come visit El Camino Reelers on Wednesday nights. We're a gay Plus club that has a very high percentage of higher-level dancers that come every week to dance. I have no idea what it is that we do that makes us an exception to the general problem quoted above, but maybe if you come visit you can figure it out. -paul From mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu Wed Jul 28 22:31:16 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA06848; Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:31:16 EDT Received: from eagle.csl.uiuc.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa06400; 28 Jul 93 20:19 EDT Received: by eagle.csl.uiuc.edu id AA14501 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for square-dancing@mc.lcs.mit.edu); Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:39:36 -0500 From: Mary Allison Wu Message-Id: <199307282239.AA14501@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu> Subject: Energy levels (fwd) To: Square dance mailing list Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:39:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1611 Kristin Jensen writes: > Other times I think gay or young square dance > missionaries should go out and start straight clubs "from scratch", > which wouldn't have to face the problem of trying to attract younger > people to dance with an older crowd. It's hard. I'm in a college club and it's really difficult to attract people. And then, once you finally manage to get people to come and dance what do they do -- they meet someone and get married and then they have CHILDREN (for some reason people seem to disappear after the first or second kid). Another problem we have is retention of members because we get these college students and what do they do - they GRADUATE (okay - some of them are like Scott "Blondie" Morton and they take almost forever to graduate) and get jobs and move AWAY. However, we are a VERY high energy club. Illinois had their state convention this weekend. There was one set of tips on the plus floor - here were the rules Playground rules - no blood no foul. If you somehow manage to have enough energy left to WALK off the floor after the tip is done, you haven't done it right. (Of course, I'm SURE there were people looking at us like "WHERE did these kids get that energy after dancing all weekend.") > and it's nice to hear from other > places where the energy is high and the dancing's fun. I keep thinking it would be great to move to the Bay Area. -- There's no question that this movie will be hotly debated, if only for its "errors." -- Nicholas Meyer on STVI Mary Allison Wu (mary@eagle.csl.uiuc.edu) Urbana, Illinois From LIBERMSA@hugse2.harvard.edu Thu Jul 29 10:37:36 1993 Return-Path: Received: from HUGSE2.HARVARD.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA24496; Thu, 29 Jul 93 10:37:36 EDT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 10:02:34 -0400 (EDT) From: LIBERMSA@hugse2.harvard.edu (SARAH M. LIBERMAN) Message-Id: <930729100234.7028@HUGSE2.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: New England Square Dancer Magazine To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"square-dancing@ai.mit.edu" Hey, anyone in the New England area get their "Dancer" magazine for the month of August? I'm asking because on the very back page, after all the club listing, there's a blurb there about things square danceers do that "piss off" other square dancers. For example, it says something like, it bothers certain square dancers when others "force" a woman to twirl on a right and left grand, and just mentions 10 "obnoxious" things some (like maybe 1%) of the square dance population does. My point here is that I do not think this was a positive advertisement, and I don't think it was appropriate in the form it was written. But, I'm always interested in other opinions... *smile* I just really thought that blurb was really obnoxious, and thinking about it, I think I'll bring my copy in tomorrow, and post some of the things in that "blurb" and hear what other people have to say. I'm so distraught by this that I'm considering writing the editors of this publication a letter as to my distress. That blurb "upset" me (for lack of a better word... :) ) because I don't think it promotes square dancing in a positive manner. The things listed in that list are only done by 1% of the population (IMHO ) and need not be mentioned in that manner in a magazine that is supposed to be promoting square dancing. What do the rest of you think? Sarah *Still smiling, though* *smile* From egkh@active.com Thu Jul 29 12:50:23 1993 Return-Path: Received: from uu6.psi.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA01248; Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:50:23 EDT Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA27568 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:31:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:28:17 -0500 From: egkh@active.com (Elizabeth Hess) Received: by active.com (NX5.67d/3.2.012693-Active Ingredients); id AA01838 for ai.mit.edu!square-dancing; Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:28:17 -0500 Message-Id: <9307291728.AA01838@active.com> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.94) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.94) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Obnoxiousness This is in response to Sarah Liberman's note about the ad in the back of "Dancer" magazine which listed ten "obnoxious" things square dancers do. I have not seen the ad myself, so it's hard to know whether it was the tone of the ad or its actual content, or its placement in a square dancing magazine that upset Sarah the most. It seems to me, though, that there might (perhaps should) be a place for such information to be shared. Recognizing that people often don't realize they are being obnoxious, and trusting that they would prefer not to be, I can easily imagine dancers welcoming that kind of information: "Gee, I never realized that doing a left pattycake allemande [for example] really bothered people!" I especially think that it's good now and then for dancers who may not know their own strength to be reminded that over-vigorous twirling, swinging, pulling someone through a call, yellow rocking, etc., is quite upsetting to the recipients of such gestures, and often makes them feel "forced," which is not merely annoying, but extremely unpleasant. Elizabeth Hess Lexington, MA From rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu Thu Jul 29 16:08:04 1993 Return-Path: Received: from Hawg.Stanford.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA10093; Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:08:04 EDT Received: by Hawg.Stanford.EDU (5.57/-eef) id AA19423; Thu, 29 Jul 93 13:07:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 13:07:25 -0700 Message-Id: <9307292007.AA19423@Hawg.Stanford.EDU> From: "Robert S. French" Sender: rfrench@hawg.stanford.edu To: LIBERMSA@hugse2.harvard.edu (SARAH M. LIBERMAN) Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: SARAH M. LIBERMAN's message of Thu, 29 Jul 1993 10:02:34 -0400 (EDT) <930729100234.7028@HUGSE2.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Re: New England Square Dancer Magazine I'd like to point out that it only takes 1% of the population to totally ruin an activity. There is a problem around here (especially with a certain singles club) where it is basically impossible for a woman to not get hugged, picked up, swung around, etc. You can watch women try to shake hands after a tip, and the guys will walk right thru their outstretched hands to give them a hug. I know people who have had their backs injured by being forceably swung around. The solution many people accept is to simply avoid this club, all their activities, and any activities that are likely to attract a large number of these dancers. I think that's a real shame. Rob From mmcate01@gumedlib.dml.georgetown.edu Fri Jul 30 09:05:24 1993 Return-Path: Received: from gumedlib.dml.Georgetown.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA10727; Fri, 30 Jul 93 09:05:24 EDT Received: by gumedlib.dml.Georgetown.EDU (5.65/25-ld-051893.02-eef) id AA02588; Fri, 30 Jul 93 13:03:33 GMT From: MARIETTA MCATEE Message-Id: <9307301303.AA02588@gumedlib.dml.Georgetown.EDU> Errors-To: Postmaster@gumedlib.dml.georgetown.edu Subject: friends search To: sd-callers-owner@cc.ysu.edu Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 9:03:30 EDT Cc: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3b PL0] Hello out there! I am here and ready and anxious to hear from you! I am still fairly new at the E-mail system, so bear with me. Does anyone know how to contact Barry Lieba? I have his address as being "lieba@earth.watson.ibm.com. but the message didn't seem to go through. Also, I am looking for Bill Mills, in New Jersey. Is he on the general square dance net, or does he have his own address? My mail address is ETT MCATEE c/o.: mmcate01@gumedlib.dml.georgetown.edu. From ZipperBear@forsythe.stanford.edu Fri Jul 30 11:14:05 1993 Return-Path: Received: from Forsythe.Stanford.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA16187; Fri, 30 Jul 93 11:14:05 EDT Message-Id: <9307301514.AA16187@life.ai.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 13:51:08 PDT To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu From: "Stewart Kramer" Subject: Re: Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) REPLY TO 07/27/93 06:04 FROM leiba@watson.ibm.com "Barry Leiba, Advanced Commercial Applications": Pattycake allemande (was Levels, levels, levels) Good get-outs are one of the most noticable features of good calling. Regardless of his faults, one good thing about Dave Stevens is that he uses a variety of calls for his get-outs. He once said that his goal was to have at least one get-out for every call on the list at a given level. And Jonathan's $.02 is that Right and Left Grand is a lot better when the preceding call flows well into it. Something clunky like "Lockit, Lockit," or "Recycle Twice" into the RLG gives bad body flow, and something overused and predictable like "Centers Trade, Recycle" and doesn't have the same panache that a good get-out like "Long Trip, Right and Left Grand" has. Similarly, it's less fun to be standing there waiting for the RLG rather than doing it. --- Stewart Kramer To: SQUARE-DANCING@AI.MIT.EDU From T1MURPHY@t1a.dot.ca.gov Fri Jul 30 19:56:40 1993 Return-Path: Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA07977; Fri, 30 Jul 93 19:56:40 EDT Received: by mc.lcs.mit.edu id ae18150; 30 Jul 93 19:50 EDT Received: from [149.136.1.1] by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa17840; 30 Jul 93 19:21 EDT Received: from T1A.DOT.CA.GOV by dot.ca.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14372; Fri, 30 Jul 93 16:28:31 PDT Received: from T1A by T1A.DOT.CA.GOV (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2785; Fri, 30 Jul 93 16:21:41 PT Message-Id: <19930730.162134.T1MURPHY@T1A> Date: 30 Jul 93 16:21:33 PT From: T1MURPHY%T1A@dot.ca.gov Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at mc.lcs.mit.edu To: Square Dancing IAGSC Subject: Uncl: Sequoia Oceanwaves Contact From Mary Ann Murphy The Sequoia Oceanwaves (mainstream/plus) Email contact person is Mary Ann Murphy (t1murphy@t1a.dot.ca.gov) ---------------------------- From egkh@active.com Sun Aug 1 12:17:27 1993 Return-Path: Received: from uu6.psi.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA04611; Sun, 1 Aug 93 12:17:27 EDT Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA19926 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 93 12:08:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 93 12:04:37 -0500 From: egkh@active.com (Elizabeth Hess) Received: by active.com (NX5.67d/3.2.012693-Active Ingredients); id AA00222 for ai.mit.edu!square-dancing; Sun, 1 Aug 93 12:04:37 -0500 Message-Id: <9308011704.AA00222@active.com> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.94) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.94) To: square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: Undesirables Rob French brings up a good point about 1% of the poulation being able to totally ruin an activity for the other 99%. Our club has a member who is so unpleasant that MANY people have told various club officers that the reason they don't come to the club anymore is because of this one dancer. Does anyone out there have experience with "dis-inviting" someone to participate? In an activity that tries to be inclusive, how did you reach a decision to ask a particular person to leave? What criteria did you use? Who had to do the dirty deed, and what were the results? Elizabeth Hess Lexington, MA From FINGER@ctpsun.ciw.edu Sun Aug 1 13:02:05 1993 Return-Path: Received: from GEOLAB.CIW.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA05767; Sun, 1 Aug 93 13:02:05 EDT Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 13:01:58 -0400 (EDT) From: FINGER@ctpsun.ciw.edu Message-Id: <930801130158.1b4d@gl.ciw.edu> Subject: RE: Undesirables To: egkh@active.com, square-dancing@ai.mit.edu X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"egkh@active.com" Elizabeth, You wrote: >Our club has a member who is so unpleasant that MANY people have told >various club officers that the reason they don't come to the club >anymore is because of this one dancer. >Does anyone out there have experience with "dis-inviting" someone to >participate? In an activity that tries to be inclusive, how did you >reach a decision to ask a particular person to leave? What criteria >did you use? Who had to do the dirty deed, and what were the >results? You didn't tell us which of the many possible unpleasant habits and/or characteristics that this person has. We had a case in a very high-level A2 club (Phantom 8's in Northern VA). The ordinary club level was nearly that of "star"-tips at NACC and the individual in question could not dance anywhere near the required level. After roughly four sessions, when it became obvious that the lack of ability was not rustiness, she was taken aside and gently told that it was not fair to the rest of the dancers in her square and that it might be advantageous for her to take A2 lessons again and then try the club again. This club was caller run and he did it. It now has managers who would be required to do the deed. As to results, she has not been sees since, so I guess it is fair to say that this action drove her from the activity. I feel the sacrifice of one is worth the benefit of many. Larry W. Finger finger@gl.ciw.edu I work to live, but I live to DANCE. From gary@maestro.mitre.org Sun Aug 1 13:46:26 1993 Received: from mwunix.mitre.org by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for /com/archive/square-dancing id AA07518; Sun, 1 Aug 93 13:46:26 EDT Return-Path: Received: from maestro.mitre.org by mwunix.mitre.org (5.65c/SMI-2.2) id AA21360; Sun, 1 Aug 1993 13:46:25 -0400 Received: from sackbut.mitre.org by maestro.mitre.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22754; Sun, 1 Aug 93 13:46:24 EDT Date: Sun, 1 Aug 93 13:46:24 EDT From: gary@maestro.mitre.org (Gary Bisaga) Message-Id: <9308011746.AA22754@maestro.mitre.org> To: sd-callers@cc.ysu.edu, square-dancing@ai.mit.edu Subject: I am out of town Please note that I am out of town for two weeks, first to Oshkosh then, the week of the 2nd at a course, so I won't be able to answer any personal notes from people. I didn't want anybody to feel snubbed, but then I also didn't want all my mailing list postings to be replied to by the "vacation" command either! Thanks. Gary